J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Mandryka]

On 1 December 1736 he gave a two hour concert on a Gottfried Silbermann organ in Dresden. He inspected the Hilderbrandt organ at Naumburg with Gottfried Silbermann.

The booklet to Maierhofer's CD says something which caught my attention about GS organs, very badly translated into English!

Also in contrast to the North German organs, we have in the sound of the Silbermann prin- cipals a high consonant portion of this sound with every pipe. This has also something to do with the Saxon language, the dialect, which also has this high consonant portion. One only needs to have a Saxon choir and a North German choir sing the same song, then one quickly gets the answer to the question about the special or- gan sound: North German vs. Middle German

The construction of the organ at the Hofkirche in Dresden wasn't started until 1750, and GS died before it was completed. This presumably explains why it's equally tuned. And it's instructive how lively the harmonies are in AoF despite the equal temperament.

[JBS]

On 1 December 1736 he gave a two hour concert on a Gottfried Silbermann organ in Dresden. He inspected the Hilderbrandt organ at Naumburg with Gottfried Silbermann.

The booklet to Maierhofer's CD says something which caught my attention about GS organs, very badly translated into English!


The construction of the organ at the Hofkirche in Dresden wasn't started until 1750, and GS died before it was completed. This presumably explains why it's equally tuned. And it's instructive how lively the harmonies are in AoF despite the equal temperament.

What does he mean by "consonant" sounds on the pipes? How does one know a pipe-consonant from a pipe-vowel?

[Mandryka]

Chiff is consonantal.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Chiff is consonantal.

I suppose it might also be approximated, if less precisely, by thinking of it in terms of 'high in sibilants'.

[Mandryka]

I'll tell you what would be fun, Jens, if you could find examples on YouTube of a Dresden choir and a North German choir, so I could hear the accent differences he's talking about.

I love these late baroque colourful big German organs!

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I'll tell you what would be fun, Jens, if you could find examples on YouTube of a Dresden choir and a North German choir, so I could hear the accent differences he's talking about.

I love these late baroque colourful big German organs!

That shouldn't be SOOO difficult, actually. Dresdner Kreuzchor (or even Leipzig Thomaner) vs. Knabenchor Hannover, maybe... or Hamburger Knabenchor St. Nikolai (whichever has recorded anything that the Kreuzchor has.)

Or NDR Chor vs. MDR Rundfunkchor Leipzig or Dresdner Motettenchor

The question remains whether, as with orchestras over the last 100 years, the distinctness of these choirs (and the distinctness of the German that its members speak) has not receded considerably.

(A list - not complete but extensive - of German choirs can be found here.)

[JBS]

Chiff is consonantal.

Thank you, gentlemen.

I did have to look up the meaning of "chiff", but now that I know it...I must confess the truth turns out to be my first idea, which  I rejected as "that's too obvious, there must be something more abstruse and technical that's meant".

[vers la flamme]

@Mandryka, you once recommended this box set to me:



It's Ton Koopman playing Bach works on various organs. Well, it's been a few months now and I'm just finally coming around on organ music enough to the point where I think I would actually find value in such a set. Do you stand by your recommendation? I like what little I've heard of the music here and it's going for cheaply enough anyway. Or do you think there is a better option out there? I have also been considering Helmut Walcha's box, which I understand is on the other end of the spectrum...?

[Mandryka]

Yes, I think that there are enough good things in there to make me happy to have the set, it's adequately recorded, there are lots of different real authentic baroque organs, Koopman is never bad and sometimes really exceptional -- unforgettable for example in BWV 656 at Ottobeuren. Even Don Satz agreed with me about that!  There's a good selection of music, enough to give you a taste of the range of Bach's organ music without being so much that you'll drown.

Koopman also recorded some Buxtehude for Novalis which you may enjoy if it's in the set.

[prémont]

It's Ton Koopman playing Bach works on various organs.

I think CD I in this set is a bit hectic (not unusual for Koopman), but the others are very good. He plays here with more authority than in his later Tel-Dec set and on equally or even more interesting authentic organs. A few of them are used on both sets. The recorded sound is also very good.

[JBS]

1) I am assuming this 3 CD set is half of the bigger Novalis set...
[asin]B000F6ZOAK[/asin]
2) Does this double CD have any relation to either the Novalis or Teldec set? And if not, does anyone have an opinion on it?
[asin]B0000277NW[/asin]

FTR, I have the Teldec set.

ETA 1: there's two listings for the Hanssler duo. I revised to link to the cheaper listing.

ETA 2:  there's a second Novalis set, I assume with the other three CDs
[asin]B000MV8H4I[/asin]

ETA 3: there's also a second, cheaper listing for the 6 CD set, but all the MP vendors are unknown to me
[asin]B000059RHV[/asin]

[Mandryka]

I think CD I in this set is a bit hectic (not unusual for Koopman),

Hectic yes, but thrilling! (I think therapists call this "reframing") Fabulous organ too.

[prémont]

1) I am assuming this 3 CD set is half of the bigger Novalis set...
[asin]B000F6ZOAK[/asin]
2) Does this double CD have any relation to either the Novalis or Teldec set? And if not, does anyone have an opinion on it?
[asin]B0000277NW[/asin]

FTR, I have the Teldec set.

ETA 1: there's two listings for the Hanssler duo. I revised to link to the cheaper listing.

ETA 2:  there's a second Novalis set, I assume with the other three CDs
[asin]B000MV8H4I[/asin]

ETA 3: there's also a second, cheaper listing for the 6 CD set, but all the MP vendors are unknown to me
[asin]B000059RHV[/asin]

To my knowledge these are all from the Novalis set.

[prémont]

Hectic yes, but thrilling! (I think therapists call this "reframing") Fabulous organ too.

Yes,  very good organ (Leonhardt's former Müller in Waalse Kerk), but these frames makes me unnecessary nervous. Maybe you may deduce something about my character from that. 

[Marc]

To my knowledge these are all from the Novalis set.

You just 'beat' me to it.
To my knowledge, you are right.
Koopman recorded 6 discs for Novalis, which was intended to become an integral. All 6 discs are re-issued in the Brilliant Classics 6-cd box, which was issued in the (iirc) early 2000s for a laughable low price. I wasn't a real organ afficionado back then, but I immediately got hold of it.
Apparently, before that (in the late 1990s), Hänssler owned the license rights to those Novalis discs.

[JBS]

Thank you. I'm a bit cautious about ordering used CDs from unknown vendors, but that seems the best route to go.

[Marc]

@Mandryka, you once recommended this box set to me:



It's Ton Koopman playing Bach works on various organs. Well, it's been a few months now and I'm just finally coming around on organ music enough to the point where I think I would actually find value in such a set. Do you stand by your recommendation? I like what little I've heard of the music here and it's going for cheaply enough anyway. Or do you think there is a better option out there? I have also been considering Helmut Walcha's box, which I understand is on the other end of the spectrum...?

I consider this (originally Novalis) stuff the best Koopman has to offer in Bach, together with his Trio Sonatas disc for Archiv/Deutsche Grammophon.

[dissily Mordentroge]

Thank you, gentlemen.

I did have to look up the meaning of "chiff", but now that I know it...I must confess the truth turns out to be my first idea, which  I rejected as "that's too obvious, there must be something more abstruse and technical that's meant".

Some 'authorities' describe the rattle and clunk of tracker action mechanisms as part of this.
Not that it matters to the majority of the congegation/audience far enough removed from these extraneous (authentic?) noises.
On the other hand far too many modern recordings are so closely miked I suspect the recording engineers are more interested in rattle and clunk than in the music itself. Brings us to another question. Why is it some modern organ builders place horizontal trumpet stops so close to the organists ears their hearing can actually be damaged through frequent use or desensitised in the upper regions in the short term? I've witnessed choristers, made to stand under these ear blasters, hold their hands over their ears in self defence.
Anyhow, sometimes I find all that chiff and chuff amusing. I have wonderful memories of the intruments in San Petronio chiffing and chuffing away along with rattles and clunks so loud as to be funny. I doubt I'd have enjoyed this if the repertiore had involved later works. Baroque lolly popps didn't appear to suffer.

[Marc]

Thank you. I'm a bit cautious about ordering used CDs from unknown vendors, but that seems the best route to go.

His DG/Archiv recordings are good, too.
Here's a nice 9 cd boxset, including other Bach stuff (harpsichord, chamber music, motets).

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Orgel-Cembalowerke-Ton-Koopman/dp/B01N5Q5BGB/?tag=goodmusicguideco

[JBS]

His DG/Archiv recordings are good, too.
Here's a nice 9 cd boxset, including other Bach stuff (harpsichord, chamber music, motets).

https://www.amazon.com/Bach-Orgel-Cembalowerke-Ton-Koopman/dp/B01N5Q5BGB/?tag=goodmusicguideco

That works nicely...thank you, just ordered it.