J.S. Bach on the Organ

Started by premont, April 29, 2007, 02:16:33 PM

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DaveF

Quote from: Forever Brett Kavanaugh on December 05, 2019, 11:04:23 AM
Pieter Van Dijk has so far released 5 discs of Bach Organ works. Has anybody listened?

He also turns up, briefly but enjoyably, in the Hänssler complete edition: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7972524--bach-transcriptions-concerti-trios  This one costs a bit less than €25 ??? per disc.
"All the world is birthday cake" - George Harrison

bioluminescentsquid

Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on December 12, 2019, 12:06:38 AM
My problem I suppose is I like what they do. Especially the instrument at Scot's Church, Melbourne. Somehow, in a less than perfect acoustic, they've built an instrument that has me spellbound though with the qualification have to sit directly oposite it, not in the main body of the church.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ajofs4waeL0

Aargh, all that carpet!

We all have our "type" - especially with organs :)
Ever get to play on it?

dissily Mordentroge

#3022
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on December 12, 2019, 02:48:31 AM
Aargh, all that carpet!

We all have our "type" - especially with organs :)
Ever get to play on it?
Won't bore you with my reasons for abandoning organ studies in my mid-teens. Suffice it to say they were very traumatic, so traumatic I've been an enemy of the Roman Church ever since. The closest I've come to playing an instrument since was to sample stops on that Rieger during it's final days of installation.
And yes, the carpet I suspect is one reason for the damped acoustic in that church. No point speaking to the church elders. They fought against the installation of the new Rieger until one generous donor came up with 90% of the $. They struggle to restrict the number of organ recitals with the excuse they're secular events.
Sad, as renowned organists from all over the planet want to travel to Australia just to sample it's attributes.

But hey, what can we expect from a bunch of fundamentalist Presbyterians who refused to join the Uniting Church? Enough, I'm getting into church politics, a very dirty game in Melbourne.

I do like your forum name. All glowing arms in the dark?

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

I have the box set. I thought that his performance was average. That's why I asked about his new recordings.

Quote from: DaveF on December 12, 2019, 01:07:38 AM
He also turns up, briefly but enjoyably, in the Hänssler complete edition: https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7972524--bach-transcriptions-concerti-trios  This one costs a bit less than €25 ??? per disc.

bioluminescentsquid

#3024
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on December 12, 2019, 01:31:07 PM
I do like your forum name. All glowing arms in the dark?

Two tentacles on the pedal, three for the manuals, one for turning pages, one for pulling stops (no thumb pistons: mechanical stop action only!), and one for prodding out-of-tune choristers, distracted stop assistants, and for private communion in the organ loft ;) . Reger, Liszt and Reubke is a piece of cake now, but I do tend to get a bit tangled up by some trio sonatas.

Glow-in-the-dark, for poorly lit organ lofts.

Thanks to the imposing Rückpositiv case behind me shielding me from the Priest's fire-and-brimstone glare (especially when the voluntary is getting too long), the congregants still haven't noticed that I am, in fact, not really human.

dissily Mordentroge

Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on December 12, 2019, 02:59:45 PM
Two tentacles on the pedal, three for the manuals, one for turning pages, one for pulling stops (no thumb pistons: mechanical stop action only!), and one for prodding out-of-tune choristers, distracted stop assistants, and for private communion in the organ loft ;) . Reger, Liszt and Reubke is a piece of cake now, but I do tend to get a bit tangled up by some trio sonatas.

Glow-in-the-dark, for poorly lit organ lofts.

Thanks to the imposing Rückpositiv case behind me shielding me from the Priest's fire-and-brimstone glare, the congregants still haven't noticed that I am, in fact, not really human.
Funniest post I've read in a long time even though my imagination was running along similar lines and I've always thought of highly talented organists as another species than Homo sapiens.

Why not an extra tentacle to manually control the swell box? Come to think of it that could be hazardous.
Can't however understand a preference for mechanical stop action only. Luddite !
I do wish I'd had an extra tentacle available, not for prodding out-of-tune choristers (didn't have any), but for strangling tonally deaf congregations. Made my teeth hurt especially when they're 'singing along with' one of those turgid lutheran chorals Bach was forced(?) to tack onto the end of his otherwise wondrous works. Yes, I know many adore his chorals. I often find them worse than an anti-climax.

As to 'private communion in the loft', let's not go there.

bioluminescentsquid

#3026
Quote from: dissily Mordentroge on December 12, 2019, 03:19:01 PM
Funniest post I've read in a long time even though my imagination was running along similar lines and I've always thought of highly talented organists as another species than Homo sapiens.

Why not an extra tentacle to manually control the swell box? Come to think of it that could be hazardous.
Can't however understand a preference for mechanical stop action only. Luddite !
I do wish I'd had an extra tentacle available, not for prodding out-of-tune choristers (didn't have any), but for strangling tonally deaf congregations. Made my teeth hurt especially when they're 'singing along with' one of those turgid lutheran chorals Bach was forced(?) to tack onto the end of his otherwise wondrous works. Yes, I know many adore his chorals. I often find them worse than an anti-climax.

Sooner Vogelsang stops, Terz-zimbels, Trichterregals, zimbelsterns, short octave, hand-pumped bellows, and modified 1/5 comma meantone than a swellbox and combination action on my good Ahrendtrop-and-Boody organ, luddite I am! :)

Really, though - I think there's something wonderfully physical about pulling out a mechanical stop - especially if it's on a big, cranky old organ. For instance, the organ in the Amsterdam Nieuwe kerk has a spring-chest stop action, and it's so heavy that you will have to grab the knob and lean backwards on the bench to wrestle it out. For instance here: https://youtu.be/eQ6-fFwkMJc at 6:45

Of course, this gets old fairly fast and is especially annoying for stop-changes on the go, so there's a good reason why combination action was invented. But that's also where stop-assistants (often times reluctant members of the choir kidnapped for the job) come in handy.

An extreme example would be those videos of Daniel Roth at St. Suplice, with assistants to help with the swell, ventils, couplers, stops, page turns, coffee machine etc.

But again, did we really learn organ because we liked pipe organs, or because we didn't like playing with other people? (Or in my case, having people find out that I am in fact a bioluminescent squid?)

Speaking of "other people," my congregation thankfully sings quite in tune most of the time, but that may or may not be a result of my habit of snacking on the worst offenders when I get the munchies during particularly long and dreary sermons.

dissily Mordentroge

#3027
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on December 12, 2019, 04:44:25 PM
An extreme example would be those videos of Daniel Roth at St. Suplice, with assistants to help with the swell, ventils, couplers, stops, page turns, coffee machine etc.
Strange you should mention Roth's assistants, they've fascinated me for a long time. Trying to read some of their facial expressions and reactions to a performance, especially by guest organists, is almost a hobby of mine.  The gentleman on the left below is always so dour it's impossible to read his reactions, if he has any.
The younger assistant on the right is himself no mean organist. I often wonder how they feel as the older ones are often 'failed organists' themselves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V2xhAdtodM

QuoteSpeaking of "other people," my congregation thankfully sings quite in tune most of the time, but that may or may not be a result of my habit of snacking on the worst offenders when I get the munchies during particularly long and dreary sermons.
Long and dreary sermons are one thing. Listening to blatent hypocracy from the pulpit delivered by those whose behind the scenes behavior can only be described as evil was too much for me.
We've wandered a long way from J S Bach on the organ so had best end this little dialogue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cD9riZLMf90

premont

Quote from: Forever Brett Kavanaugh on December 12, 2019, 02:04:41 PM
I have the box set. I thought that his performance was average.

Exactly my sentiment too.
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

Quote from: (: premont :) on December 12, 2019, 05:18:48 PM
Exactly my sentiment too.

I am looking forward to reading senior members' review on his new recordings.

DaveF

Quote from: Forever Brett Kavanaugh on December 12, 2019, 02:04:41 PM
I have the [Hänssler] box set. I thought that his performance was average. That's why I asked about his new recordings.

Just had a re-listen: Yes, some of his performances sound under-rehearsed, with splashy, slightly uneven fingerwork in fast passages and less-than-smooth moves between manuals.  The Alkmaar organ, to my ears, isn't the most interesting or distinctive instrument either.  So not quite a highlight of the Hänssler set.  Undemanding, enjoyable music though.
"All the world is birthday cake" - George Harrison

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

It is my understanding that majority of members here list Foccroulle, Alain 3rd, Koopman, and Kooiman plus for the best selection of organs.

Quote from: milk on December 04, 2019, 11:03:51 PM
I know this has all been discussed in this thread many times, but Foccroulle certainly has made an attempt to bop around to different interesting organs and I think I like the registrations he chooses are effective. The topic of organ music seems too complicated for me to understand well but I think he's another one that I've enjoyed. I'm sort of mentioning the stuff attuned to historical organs.

Mandryka

#3032
Quote from: Forever Brett Kavanaugh on December 14, 2019, 08:39:07 AM
It is my understanding that majority of members here list Foccroulle, Alain 3rd, Koopman, and Kooiman plus for the best selection of organs.

+ Weinberger and Stockmeier and Isoir and Vernet, maybe. Assuming "best" doesn't mean "baroque."
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

#3033
Quote from: Forever Brett Kavanaugh on December 12, 2019, 02:04:41 PM
I have the box set. I thought that his performance was average. That's why I asked about his new recordings.

I've never heard his Bach, but I've heard quite a lot of his Sweelinck. I don't know about average, but what he does is self effacing, very natural sounding, without a great sense of the organist's personality imposing itself on the music.

Quote from: DaveF on December 14, 2019, 12:29:09 AM
The Alkmaar organ, to my ears, isn't the most interesting or distinctive instrument either.  .

I like it in its present form -- e.g. Marie Claire Alain III for some Leipzig Chorales. (Gosh she plays quite fast!)
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

milk

I know this has been discussed to the limit here...but...how about your top recordings on baroque organs? What are the must-haves (I might have them!)?

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

#3035
Just FYI, Kei Koito's Bach vols 1-5 and other works are re-presented at her home page on YT. These works will generate varied/divided opinion on the thread.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lzk90cvThf2oG0tylGFZ_cQ1NjEttxUT4

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

Quote from: Mandryka on December 14, 2019, 09:11:09 AM
+ Weinberger and Stockmeier and Isoir and Vernet, maybe. Assuming "best" doesn't mean "baroque."
I like Stockmeier's performance as well as the organ sound. Though the recording is a little old, it doesn't bother me.

dissily Mordentroge

If I can draw attention for a moment to an aspect of Bach's organ composition, it's place in his cantatas.
There are some instances where the organist appears to be conducting the orchestra. Not always the case but I suggest in this introduction to Cantata BWV 29, 'Wir dir, Gott, war darken dir' Leo van Doeselaar is very much in charge. The Netherlands Bach Ensemble occupy a special place in my heart. They may not always play with perfect ensemble but on an emotional level they never fail. I have to admit though not even they can revive some of Bach's turgid Lutheran corals which I confess are a real problem for me, especially when tone deaf congregations join in as they did in Bach's day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwGWocp80-o

milk

Quote from: Forever Brett Kavanaugh on December 14, 2019, 08:39:07 AM
It is my understanding that majority of members here list Foccroulle, Alain 3rd, Koopman, and Kooiman plus for the best selection of organs.
It can be very interesting to follow someone like Foccroulle to all these interesting places. I'm sorry I kind of lost interest in him. Lately, I really like Kei Koito.

milk

How are the recordings of Bach on Italian baroque organs? Is there any disadvantage?