J.S. Bach on the Organ

[staxomega]

I agree. Weinberger is one of my treasured performers, Top 5 of all the Bach organ sets I own. There are many!
And sometimes I think that the discussion about his organ music gets too technical. And although I am able to play the organ,  I love to read about the emotional experience of people rather then getting info about the reeds, stops and what not.

Harry do you have any favorite pieces from Weinberger?

[Harry]

Harry do you have any favorite pieces from Weinberger?

No not really, I see the set as a whole, in which Weinberger's approach is very stabil. So for me there is not a definable favorite, but if forced I would say the
Orgelbüchlein BWV 599-644; Partiten BWV 768 & 770; Schübler-Choräle BWV 646-650; Choräle BWV 651-663, 665-767, 769, 1085, 1090-1120, BWV Anh. II 58, Anh. II 67, Anh. II 59, Anh. II 55, Anh. II 69; Choralbearbeitung "An Wasserflüssen Babylon" BWV 653b; Choräle aus der Berliner Sammelhandschrift Mus. ms. Bach P 285 BWV Anh. II, 50, Anh. II 52, Anh. II 49, Anh. II 64, Anh. II 63, Anh. II 62a; Choräle aus der Rudorff-Sammlung Leipzig Ms. R 24 BWV deest; Choräle aus der Sammelhandschrift Yale LM 4843 BWV deest;

[bioluminescentsquid]

I do very much believe that a major part of appreciation of organ music also involves the appreciation of the history and technique. The 16th century Uttum organ and the 1928 Skinner at Yale Woolsey Hall are both organs, but they are built at different times with different stops, mechanism, playing technique and tonal philosophy. There's a reason Sweelinck sounds better at Uttum and Elgar better at Woolsey Hall! So it is important to also consider the music in relation to the organ it is played on.

That being said, I don't want to alienate anyone with too much jargon - we should still appreciate the music first, and can always learn to appreciate the nitty-gritty later.


Anyways, I am currently listening to Alain's last integrale on historical instruments (Erato) - had it for a while, but never gotten around to listen to it until now.
And I think that I have here a new favorite for the Orgelbüchlein, a useful foil to Piet Wiersma.
While Wiersma's is earthy, roughly-hewn, and played on intimate Dutch village organs, Alain is graceful, regal, maybe even a bit abstract.
With wonderful contrast between quiet, contemplative (more accurately - quietly ecstatic) settings and expansive, fiery ones. She's at her best here, the free works are wonderful too but not as consistently impressive.

A release to watch out for is Stephen Farr at the Trost organ at Walthershausen - I think Farr is quite like Peter Hurford, a rather "no-nonsense" English organist that usually records on uninteresting modern organs but can sound very good on old ones (or more interesting modern organs). His currently released Bach is not so interesting, but I did very much enjoy his Tudor keyboard music recording.

[Mandryka]

Listening to some Orgelbuchlein on this one, I'm very impressed by the Nijkerk organ, with its lovely bass notes. There are a few other things on record but not many and hard to find as far as I can see, and maybe a few thing on youtube which I'll listen to later.

[Que]

Listening to some Orgelbuchlein on this one, I'm very impressed by the Nijkerk organ, with its lovely bass notes. There are a few other things on record but not many and hard to find as far as I can see, and maybe a few thing on youtube which I'll listen to later.

I do hope Kooiman's cycle on Coronata gets reissued some day!

Q

[Mandryka]

I do hope Kooiman's cycle on Coronata gets reissued some day!

Q

Which continent are you in?

[Harry]

I do hope Kooiman's cycle on Coronata gets reissued some day!

Q

+ 1

[Marc]

I do hope Kooiman's cycle on Coronata gets reissued some day!

Q

Kooiman/Coronata, Beekman/Lindenberg, Wiersma/Eurosound (unfinished), all these three have eternal value, IMHO.
But I'm not very hopeful about re-releases.

About 6 or 7 years ago, I asked someone of the Groningen Orgelland Foundation about the chances of a Wiersma reissue. "No chance at all", he said. "Selling discs is not our main interest and core business anyway. Discs that go OOP, just go OOP. That's all."

(Side-step: the year before they had been selling the last copies of a few Wiersma volumes for 1 euro per disc, during the organ season in the Martinikerk. I recall an enthousiastic teenage boy who wanted to buy some, and his dad said: "these organs do not have 32ft pedals, they're not very interesting." I just shook my head in disbelief. I said to the boy: "it's probably the last chance you can get them and they sound amazing." So he asked his dad again and was allowed to buy 2 discs. I talked to his father afterwards and he genuinely believed that the smaller organs sounded far too weak and non-impressive. "Give me a big Cavaillé-Coll any time", he said. "Also for Bach and Buxtehude?" I asked. "Sure thing", he said. Well, to each their own.)

I once sent a mail to Brilliant about the possibility of a Beekman reissue on their label: no reaction. They now have issued the BIS Fagius integral (around 2000) and the Molardi set, so I guess that's plenty for them at the moment.

With both the better known Kooiman and Beekman integrals: I just doubt whether the heirs and (former?) copyright holders are interested in such a thing. The Beekman integral gets mentioned from time to time in Dutch protestant-based newspapers or magazines. When a Kooiman set gets a mention, it's mostly the last one (French Silbermanns) they talk about, which was finished by his students.

So yes, recordings by Bernstein, Karajan, Callas, Horowitz: they get dozens of reissues. Including continuing remastering and such.
But the organ world is a small world and interest is apparently (very) low. Which is a pity, because it can be done quite cheap. Most of those recordings, from the 1970s, do not need any remastering at all. Exceptions not included, the recordings are mostly very well done. But the market is just way too small.

[prémont]

..... afterwards and he genuinely believed that the smaller organs sounded far too weak and non-impressive. "Give me a big Cavaillé-Coll any time", he said. "Also for Bach and Buxtehude?" I asked. "Sure thing", he said. Well, to each their own.

Essentially this is a child of the same philosophy, which prefers Steinway to harpsichord for Bach.

[Marc]

I do very much believe that a major part of appreciation of organ music also involves the appreciation of the history and technique. The 16th century Uttum organ and the 1928 Skinner at Yale Woolsey Hall are both organs, but they are built at different times with different stops, mechanism, playing technique and tonal philosophy. There's a reason Sweelinck sounds better at Uttum and Elgar better at Woolsey Hall! So it is important to also consider the music in relation to the organ it is played on.

That being said, I don't want to alienate anyone with too much jargon - we should still appreciate the music first, and can always learn to appreciate the nitty-gritty later.

Well, I don't mind when you use a bit of jargon... when I don't understand, I guess I just have to ask. When I'm not interested, I just carry on.

Anyways, I am currently listening to Alain's last integrale on historical instruments (Erato) - had it for a while, but never gotten around to listen to it until now.
And I think that I have here a new favorite for the Orgelbüchlein, a useful foil to Piet Wiersma.
While Wiersma's is earthy, roughly-hewn, and played on intimate Dutch village organs, Alain is graceful, regal, maybe even a bit abstract.
With wonderful contrast between quiet, contemplative (more accurately - quietly ecstatic) settings and expansive, fiery ones. She's at her best here, the free works are wonderful too but not as consistently impressive.

Funny. Because Alain is, indeed, a bit abstract, I prefer her in the free works. Same goes for a great organist like Ghielmi, btw. Heard him in the Martinikerk once, and also 'live' his chorale playing was just a bit too slick and aloof.

A release to watch out for is Stephen Farr at the Trost organ at Walthershausen - I think Farr is quite like Peter Hurford, a rather "no-nonsense" English organist that usually records on uninteresting modern organs but can sound very good on old ones (or more interesting modern organs). His currently released Bach is not so interesting, but I did very much enjoy his Tudor keyboard music recording.

Well, I don't want to rage the Trost lovers (I have a kind of love-hate relationship with his instruments ), but at least I prefer the Waltershausen one to the Altenburg...
My favourite of the (more or less) central German baroque organs is the Treutmann of the Stiftskirche St. Georg in Grauhof, nearby Goslar (Niedersachsen).

[Marc]

Essentially this is a child of the same philosophy, which prefers Steinway to harpsichord for Bach.

Well, he did like the bigger baroque ones, like Martini, Hamburg (Schnitger, St. Jacobi) and Freiberg Dom (Silbermann).
But he also preferred French romantic organ music to baroque, so his instruments preferences were understandable.

The brother of a friend of mine is a very good organist, who works in Germany. He's also a great admirer of the French Romantics and their instruments. About 5 years ago, he came to Groningen and was allowed to play the Noordbroek Schnitger et al. "How was that?" I asked. "Oh my God, what beautiful stops and sounds", he said. 2 Years ago he gave a concert on a nice little organ somewhere in the Netherlands, which I attended. He's really very good (just a few mistakes) and he played a great BWV 564 at the end. I told him so afterwards, but he's just so modest, he's blushing after every compliment he's been given.

Well, enough of them sentimental stories... let's throw a Wiersma disc in my 1980s Philips cd player. ("Oh my God, what beautiful registrations and sounds." )

[prémont]

Well, he did like the bigger baroque ones, like Martini, Hamburg (Schnitger, St. Jacobi) and Freiberg Dom (Silbermann).
But he also preferred French romantic organ music to baroque, so his instruments preferences were understandable.

The parallel still works, because the major part of those who prefer piano for Bach also are those, who prefer romantic (and Vienna classical) music.

The brother of a friend of mine is a very good organist, who works in Germany. He's also a great admirer of the French Romantics and their instruments. About 5 years ago, he came to Groningen and was allowed to play the Noordbroek Schnitger et al. "How was that?" I asked. "Oh my God, what beautiful stops and sounds", he said. 2 Years ago he gave a concert on a nice little organ somewhere in the Netherlands, which I attended. He's really very good (just a few mistakes) and he played a great BWV 564 at the end. I told him so afterwards, but he's just so modest, he's blushing after every compliment he's been given.

Thanks for this nice little anecdote. 

[bioluminescentsquid]

Well, I don't want to rage the Trost lovers (I have a kind of love-hate relationship with his instruments ), but at least I prefer the Waltershausen one to the Altenburg...
My favourite of the (more or less) central German baroque organs is the Treutmann of the Stiftskirche St. Georg in Grauhof, nearby Goslar (Niedersachsen).

That is interesting, since Waltherhausen is more well preserved but apparently less successful in person (as people who've been there and played it told me) than Altenburg - mainly, the full organ sound is quite mild and distant and doesn't fill the very dry (and unforgiving) room. The original keyboards are also very heavy and the original pedalboard is uncomfortably wide (1.7 m reportedly). But I'm happy that that doesn't deter organists from recording here, since it's still a very intriguing organ to hear.

Simon Reichert has a great Bach trio sonatas recording in Walthershausen - quite a real feat, playing the trio sonatas on a "regular" organ is hard enough!
You can get your full share of Trostian chiff chaff chuff here https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lakFMYvkX-6LV8Xxyy8ebOkxxPnJT5DIk

[Mandryka]

Here's a nice video of the Alternburg Trost I found a while ago

https://www.youtube.com/v/JY_VrJ2T8DM&feature=youtu.be

[Marc]

That is interesting, since Waltherhausen is more well preserved but apparently less successful in person (as people who've been there and played it told me) than Altenburg - mainly, the full organ sound is quite mild and distant and doesn't fill the very dry (and unforgiving) room. The original keyboards are also very heavy and the original pedalboard is uncomfortably wide (1.7 m reportedly). But I'm happy that that doesn't deter organists from recording here, since it's still a very intriguing organ to hear.

Simon Reichert has a great Bach trio sonatas recording in Walthershausen - quite a real feat, playing the trio sonatas on a "regular" organ is hard enough!
You can get your full share of Trostian chiff chaff chuff here https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lakFMYvkX-6LV8Xxyy8ebOkxxPnJT5DIk

Thanks.

I.c. the difficulty and toughness of playing those old beauties: the Schnitger et al of the Der Aa Kerk is also a notorious case. This doesn't mean the organists do not want to play on it.

[Marc]

[...]
Simon Reichert has a great Bach trio sonatas recording in Walthershausen - quite a real feat, playing the trio sonatas on a "regular" organ is hard enough!
You can get your full share of Trostian chiff chaff chuff here https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lakFMYvkX-6LV8Xxyy8ebOkxxPnJT5DIk

I'm posting too soon, cause I've just started listening to BWV 525/1. But what can I say? Just lovely lovely lovely.

EDIT: whilst listening to BWV 525/2 ... even more lovely lovely lovely. Yes, I think I'd go for the Waltershausen Trost instead of Altenburg... personal preferences, what to do about them?

[bioluminescentsquid]

Kooiman/Coronata, Beekman/Lindenberg, Wiersma/Eurosound (unfinished), all these three have eternal value, IMHO.
But I'm not very hopeful about re-releases.

About 6 or 7 years ago, I asked someone of the Groningen Orgelland Foundation about the chances of a Wiersma reissue. "No chance at all", he said. "Selling discs is not our main interest and core business anyway. Discs that go OOP, just go OOP. That's all."

(Side-step: the year before they had been selling the last copies of a few Wiersma volumes for 1 euro per disc, during the organ season in the Martinikerk. I recall an enthousiastic teenage boy who wanted to buy some, and his dad said: "these organs do not have 32ft pedals, they're not very interesting." I just shook my head in disbelief. I said to the boy: "it's probably the last chance you can get them and they sound amazing." So he asked his dad again and was allowed to buy 2 discs. I talked to his father afterwards and he genuinely believed that the smaller organs sounded far too weak and non-impressive. "Give me a big Cavaillé-Coll any time", he said. "Also for Bach and Buxtehude?" I asked. "Sure thing", he said. Well, to each their own.)

I once sent a mail to Brilliant about the possibility of a Beekman reissue on their label: no reaction. They now have issued the BIS Fagius integral (around 2000) and the Molardi set, so I guess that's plenty for them at the moment.

With both the better known Kooiman and Beekman integrals: I just doubt whether the heirs and (former?) copyright holders are interested in such a thing. The Beekman integral gets mentioned from time to time in Dutch protestant-based newspapers or magazines. When a Kooiman set gets a mention, it's mostly the last one (French Silbermanns) they talk about, which was finished by his students.

So yes, recordings by Bernstein, Karajan, Callas, Horowitz: they get dozens of reissues. Including continuing remastering and such.
But the organ world is a small world and interest is apparently (very) low. Which is a pity, because it can be done quite cheap. Most of those recordings, from the 1970s, do not need any remastering at all. Exceptions not included, the recordings are mostly very well done. But the market is just way too small.

Great to know that there are still young people who appreciate the organ! My organ teacher recently visited Stef Tuinstra in Groningen and was surprised to see lots of young adults in the congregation during sunday morning. (he also got some time on the Schnitger organ) Was quite a shock, as back here we play for an aging Episcopalian congregation.

And I really wish that I was in Groningen 5 years ago  

In the US, despite the efforts since the 50's of people like E. Power Biggs, John Brombaugh etc. to popularize the traditional mechanical action organ, in some circles there can still be quite vehement "anti-tracker sentiment" with people defending "bigger is better" at all costs. Some of it is warranted, since we did replace some good Skinner organs to equally marvelous, but liturgically less useful Flentrops, but often the criticism is more ideological. But it did result in some big mistakes (in my opinion), such as plans for a Flentrop organ at Carnegie hall being cancelled, or later in the 90's when the symphony hall in San Francisco decided to take a really crappy and screamy Ruffatti organ over a Fisk as their concert hall organ.

Don't know if it will be cancelled due to coronavirus, but this summer the enormous Ruffatti organ in Crystal Cathedral, South California (first designed by Virgil Fox, the original anti-trackerite) will be inagurated after restoration. I'd rather be in Groningen, but I'll be there to check it out

Speaking of E. Power Biggs, he was obviously a great organist but his recordings from the 50's and 60's suffered the same fate as Wiersma, Kooiman, and Beekman's did later - Columbia threw the original tapes out once interest in them dwindled. Thankfully they were popular enough back then and old records are not hard to found, and I have a few. (although I don't have a good system to play them on) Besides for having great playing on them, they are also great documents of the state of many old organs during the 50's and 60's.

[Marc]

Great to know that there are still young people who appreciate the organ! My organ teacher recently visited Stef Tuinstra in Groningen and was surprised to see lots of young adults in the congregation during sunday morning. (he also got some time on the Schnitger organ) Was quite a shock, as back here we play for an aging Episcopalian congregation.

And I really wish that I was in Groningen 5 years ago  

In the US, despite the efforts since the 50's of people like E. Power Biggs, John Brombaugh etc. to popularize the traditional mechanical action organ, in some circles there can still be quite vehement "anti-tracker sentiment" with people defending "bigger is better" at all costs. Some of it is warranted, since we did replace some good Skinner organs to equally marvelous, but liturgically less useful Flentrops, but often the criticism is more ideological.

Don't know if it will be cancelled due to coronavirus, but this summer the enormous Ruffatti organ in Crystal Cathedral, South California (first designed by Virgil Fox, the original anti-trackerite) will be inagurated after restoration. I'd rather be in Groningen, but I'll be there to check it out

Speaking of E. Power Biggs, he was obviously a great organist but his recordings from the 50's and 60's suffered the same fate as Wiersma, Kooiman, and Beekman's did later - Columbia threw the original tapes out once interest in them dwindled. Thankfully they were popular enough back then and old records are not hard to found, and I have a few. (although I don't have a good system to play them on) Besides for having great playing on them, they are also great documents of the state of many old organs during the 50's and 60's.

I.c. the Tuinstra service: if it was on a Sunday in the Martini, then it was probably the oecumenical service, organized by the christian Student Ministry of Groningen. And since Groningen is a University and Graduate School city, it's not so strange that (relatively) many young people come there.
I can assure you, in our country, in general, the churches are probably more empty than in the USA. Churches are either quickly emptying or closing rapidly (the few exceptions aside), and perishes are merged.

Another thing about Groningen: there are probably more organ afficionados here, also because the local Conservatory is specialized in organ music. So there are (relatavily) many organ students here, also from abroad (especially Asia). But the amount of Dutch kids and students who choose for organ has been going down in the last 2 or 3 decades, too.

I think I have 2 discs of Power Biggs (best name for an organist ever), and I think he's fine. I most certainly appreciate his way of playing.

[bioluminescentsquid]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tXrt-N_4vY

EPB at the 1721 Schnitger & sons organ at Zwolle, at that time freshly reconstructed by Flentrop - again, I like his recordings on old organs more than the ones on his "home" organ, the Flentrop at Harvard. Fleet footed and energetic Dorian P&F! It's funny that now, Flentrop is once again taking this organ apart to restore it according to everything new we have learned about Schnitger organ in these 70 years.

[Marc]

Here's a nice video of the Alternburg Trost I found a while ago

https://www.youtube.com/v/JY_VrJ2T8DM&feature=youtu.be

Nice indeed. Close up to the sound... lovely.