J.S. Bach on the Organ

Started by premont, April 29, 2007, 02:16:33 PM

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Mandryka

#3160
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 17, 2020, 07:35:08 PM


Any thoughts on Hubert Meister? I remember hearing it before and liking it, but I just listened to sound samples online again and was actually quite disappointed.

A sort of sweep forward to the music sometimes, as if he's bitten it all it off in one go, he reminds me of Walter Gieseking in that respect -- in Scarbo.

Am I right to think 525-7 are at Frosshartmannsdorf and the other three are at Forchheim?

(Been listening to both Stockmeier and Beekman, both of whom seem really special to me!)
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

premont

Quote from: Mandryka on March 18, 2020, 01:45:20 AM
Am I right to think 525-7 are at Frosshartmannsdorf and the other three are at Forchheim?

According to the booklet sonatas 1, 2 ,5 and 6 are recorded at Grosshartmansdorf and
sonatas 3 and 4 at Forchheim.
γνῶθι σεαυτόν

Mandryka

Quote from: (: premont :) on March 19, 2020, 04:13:24 AM
According to the booklet sonatas 1, 2 ,5 and 6 are recorded at Grosshartmansdorf and
sonatas 3 and 4 at Forchheim.

Thanks - both fine organs in different ways. The recording is a nice one to own.


I just found this on Qobuz, it contains another performance of BWV 529 and some chorales. The organ sounds pure, I bet it's not very old, I can't find any details,  there's some info about it here. Nice performance but no match for Grosshartmansdorf.

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubert_Meister

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

bioluminescentsquid

#3163
Quote from: vers la flamme on November 24, 2019, 07:42:16 AM
@Mandryka, you once recommended this box set to me:



It's Ton Koopman playing Bach works on various organs. Well, it's been a few months now and I'm just finally coming around on organ music enough to the point where I think I would actually find value in such a set. Do you stand by your recommendation? I like what little I've heard of the music here and it's going for cheaply enough anyway. Or do you think there is a better option out there? I have also been considering Helmut Walcha's box, which I understand is on the other end of the spectrum...?

I just pulled out volume 6 of this set and gave it a spin. (BWV 547, some CU III chorales, Trio sonata 3 BWV 527, BWV 533, BWV 662, BWV 548 "wedge")
Well, I've mentioned the exceptionally reedy and speedy (at least the prelude) BWV 547 here before, but I've forgotten how good the rest of the playing is. The grand preludes and fugues, which often receive more attention than chorale-based works, are naturally played very fast, but somehow, the organ and acoustic takes it well.

The organ here is the one in the Den Bosch ('s-Hertogenbosch) Janskerk, a classic 17th century Dutch city organ rebuilt in the 18th century in Southern Dutch rococo style, then heavily restored by Flentrop in the 80's. A bit of a typical Dutch "Jack of all trades" instrument now with quite the French accent, handles romantic music very nicely too.
It sounds the best here, I like the sound better than Beekman's recordings on it (Here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqrmlyK8lFQ), which seems a bit sterile.

Often times, Koopman's playing can be a little "rigid" when fast, but definitely not in this recording. He uses much more little agogics in this recording compared to his later ones, softening up while preserving the breathless forward momentum of his playing - I like BWV 548 and his trio sonata much more than on his later set for this reason. Here's an example of a "big organ" trio sonata done well, a good mixture of intimacy and grandeur.
I also like his use of echoes in the BWV 533 fugue.

Koopman plays the chorales in a careful, broad, contemplative manner - again, he's more "on it" here than on Freiburg Silbermann, the way he slowly opens the organ up starting from a single flute in BWV 669 and ending with something short of full organ on BWV 671 is most alluring.

While I do tend to like the Schnitger instruments (used in the later set) more, I do like the fiery, nasal, reed-soaked plenum of the Den Bosch organ, along with the multitudes of soft rococo colors in the trio sonatas and chorales.

Anyways, I think this is one of Koopman's best single Bach recordings.

In general, I think this 6-disc set is either Koopman's best (the one at Ottobeuren with the Passacaliaga, Weingarten, this one), not as good as his later integrale (recordings on Muller organs), or completely forgettable (Maasluis)

bioluminescentsquid

Also, I'm surprised no one has mentioned this Weinberger recording here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nAsyUTn2Xer8tDI5om75BbXhHkWtt98hU

The Bach on it is very good! I would describe the playing as straightforward and muscular, the meantone tuning of the organ adds to the charm.
Reminds me that I do have to give his integrale another chance.

Mandryka

#3165
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 22, 2020, 02:51:11 PM
I just pulled out volume 6 of this set and gave it a spin. (BWV 547, some CU III chorales, Trio sonata 3 BWV 527, BWV 533, BWV 662, BWV 548 "wedge")
Well, I've mentioned the exceptionally reedy and speedy (at least the prelude) BWV 547 here before, but I've forgotten how good the rest of the playing is. The grand preludes and fugues, which often receive more attention than chorale-based works, are naturally played very fast, but somehow, the organ and acoustic takes it well.

The organ here is the one in the Den Bosch ('s-Hertogenbosch) Janskerk, a classic 17th century Dutch city organ rebuilt in the 18th century in Southern Dutch rococo style, then heavily restored by Flentrop in the 80's. A bit of a typical Dutch "Jack of all trades" instrument now with quite the French accent, handles romantic music very nicely too.
It sounds the best here, I like the sound better than Beekman's recordings on it (Here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqrmlyK8lFQ), which seems a bit sterile.

Often times, Koopman's playing can be a little "rigid" when fast, but definitely not in this recording. He uses much more little agogics in this recording compared to his later ones, softening up while preserving the breathless forward momentum of his playing - I like BWV 548 and his trio sonata much more than on his later set for this reason. Here's an example of a "big organ" trio sonata done well, a good mixture of intimacy and grandeur.
I also like his use of echoes in the BWV 533 fugue.

Koopman plays the chorales in a careful, broad, contemplative manner - again, he's more "on it" here than on Freiburg Silbermann, the way he slowly opens the organ up starting from a single flute in BWV 669 and ending with something short of full organ on BWV 671 is most alluring.

While I do tend to like the Schnitger instruments (used in the later set) more, I do like the fiery, nasal, reed-soaked plenum of the Den Bosch organ, along with the multitudes of soft rococo colors in the trio sonatas and chorales.

Anyways, I think this is one of Koopman's best single Bach recordings.

In general, I think this 6-disc set is either Koopman's best (the one at Ottobeuren with the Passacaliaga, Weingarten, this one), not as good as his later integrale (recordings on Muller organs), or completely forgettable (Maasluis)

It's nice to be reminded of this one, after a panic at least, because I'd incorrectly tagged it so it was a bugger to find. I know it of old because, years ago, I decided to explore CU3 in depth and I was really impressed by Koopman's playing of the first three chorales. At the time, those chorales were hard for me because they seemed sombre and heavy. But Koopman lightens them up, no doubt helped by the reedy organ. Great thing to rediscover this morning. I still like the way he plays those chorales a lot.

Those Novalis recordings come from the 1980s, a time when, in my milieu, rebellious teenagers used to get high on amphetamines in clubs. Listening to his extraordinary 547 prelude made me think of this.

I was once in Holland and I met someone who was a great friend of Koopman. This chap came from the far and distant north of Holland, and he was passionate about early music in that Dutch way we're all very familiar with. Anyway he said he had met Ton Koopman in Amsterdam years ago and told him that he was trying to get music education and therapy and concerts going in his little town in the north and Koopman immediately volunteered to help. He would travel up , give recitals, master classes, concerts etc. All gratis and all with great charm .


Re Massluis I'm inclined to agree with you except for one thing - Aus tiefer not - my least favourite bit of CU3 in fact. But I think that what Koopman does is not bad - serious without being severe, weighty without being heavy.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Marc

Quote from: Mandryka on March 23, 2020, 12:43:47 AM
[...]

I was once in Holland and I met someone who was a great friend of Koopman. This chap came from the far and distant north of Holland, and he was passionate about early music in that Dutch way we're all very familiar with. Anyway he said he had met Ton Koopman in Amsterdam years ago and told him that he was trying to get music education and therapy and concerts going in his little town in the north and Koopman immediately volunteered to help. He would travel up , give recitals, master classes, concerts etc. All gratis and all with great charm.

When the little Schnitger in Mensingeweer (small village in Groningen province, NL) was restored, Koopman came and gave a concert for free, too.
I thought it was a pity though that he, during his opening speech, began complaining (again) about other scholars, especially German, who disagreed with his vision on Bach. You could feel that the majority of the audience did not come to hear that.

I also recall him visiting a pub after a concert and, together with a few other concertgoers, we waved at him cheerfully and he cheerfully waved back with a big smile.

Quote from: Mandryka on March 23, 2020, 12:43:47 AM
Re Massluis I'm inclined to agree with you except for one thing - Aus tiefer not - my least favourite bit of CU3 in fact. But I think that what Koopman does is not bad - serious without being severe, weighty without being heavy.

Yes, I remember your 'dislike' of BWV 686. I do apologize... it's still my favourite chorale of CU3 ;). I can listen to that piece even 3 or 4 times in a row.
Like you, I think that Koopman's performance on the Maassluis Novalis/Brilliant disc is quite good. And I'm also happy with his performances of the small (Krebs?) Preludes & Fugues BWV 553-560. Very enjoyable. The same goes for the Trio Sonata in E Flat, BWV 525. The only small problem I have with this issue is the recording sound, which is a bit too dim. When I listen to this disc, I always give the 'treble' rotary button on my ole fashioned receiver a big 'hit' to brighten up and sharpen the sound.
Turning up the volume helps, too. Yeah.

Traverso





There is good news for organ aficionados,in time there will be a new edition of the Bach / Beekman recordings.




Piet Lindenberg is working on a reissue of the integral recording of Bach's organ oeuvre by the recently deceased organist Bram Beekman.

That reports The Organ Friend in the latest issue. Between 1990 and 1996, Beekman recorded for the LBCD van Lindenberg label all organ works by Bach, played on fourteen historical organs, on nine double CDs. The series has been sold out for years.

Piet Lindenberg has now planned to re-release the entire series in a collection box with textbook, possibly in combination with Beekman's recording of the complete organ oeuvre by César Franck. The cost of the collection box, which should be released next year, will be less than 100 euros.

Interested parties can report to the publisher via pietlindenberg@solcon.nl.


Because other activities took a long time from 2003 onwards, LBCD production almost came to a halt. In 2008 the curtain fell on the store in Rotterdam; a third party at that time managed to improperly annex the LBCD stock. Everything appeared to have ended up in the ram before appropriate measures could be taken. However, the rights and production materials are still owned by Lindenberg Productions BV and owner Piet Lindenberg has decided to revive the label again in 2019. In the older generations, mentioning LBCD is still a direct indication of recognition. There is therefore every reason to continue in the same way (quality and information) and also to introduce the new generation (s) to the label. In addition, the new possibilities of making earlier productions available through streaming are also being examined.

https://www.lindenbergproductions.nl/over-ons/

https://www.rd.nl/muziek/heruitgave-bachintegrale-organist-bram-beekman-1.549733


Harry

Quote from: Traverso on April 02, 2020, 07:34:14 AM



There is good news for organ aficionados,in time there will be a new edition of the Bach / Beekman recordings.




Piet Lindenberg is working on a reissue of the integral recording of Bach's organ oeuvre by the recently deceased organist Bram Beekman.

That reports The Organ Friend in the latest issue. Between 1990 and 1996, Beekman recorded for the LBCD van Lindenberg label all organ works by Bach, played on fourteen historical organs, on nine double CDs. The series has been sold out for years.

Piet Lindenberg has now planned to re-release the entire series in a collection box with textbook, possibly in combination with Beekman's recording of the complete organ oeuvre by César Franck. The cost of the collection box, which should be released next year, will be less than 100 euros.

Interested parties can report to the publisher via pietlindenberg@solcon.nl.


Email send, told them I am game for this box.
Quote from Manuel, born in Spain, currently working at Fawlty Towers.

" I am from Barcelona, I know nothing.............."

Dry Brett Kavanaugh

Sounds good! Thanks a lot.

Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on March 22, 2020, 03:04:41 PM
Also, I'm surprised no one has mentioned this Weinberger recording here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nAsyUTn2Xer8tDI5om75BbXhHkWtt98hU

The Bach on it is very good! I would describe the playing as straightforward and muscular, the meantone tuning of the organ adds to the charm.
Reminds me that I do have to give his integrale another chance.

bioluminescentsquid

#3170


A recently (today, if I'm not misktaken) released recording. Bright, cheery, confident, performances, albeit with a bit of reserve that I really enjoy. Small, intimate organ used very resourcefully. Not jaw-dropping, mind-blowing or anything, but a charming recording - it's worth listening to one or two of the sonatas on here.

Bears a family resemblance to my favorite John Butt recording, but rather more balanced and careful. (and in a more forgiving acoustic)
Also a wonderful honesty/innocence/directness that brings to mind Piet Wiersma.

Edit: My god, he does take his time in the slow movements! It's bound to cause some debate, but I actually like this a lot, how leisurely the pace is and how we can admire, chew on every phrase. I've never enjoyed the slow movements more! And the fast movements become all the more refreshing afterwards.

Edit 2: added youtube link
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ne5S4LTR2N81zIkjl6-Oh-bjsy7oBT8L0

Mandryka

#3171
Quote from: bioluminescentsquid on April 05, 2020, 08:36:14 PM


A recently (today, if I'm not misktaken) released recording. Bright, cheery, confident, performances, albeit with a bit of reserve that I really enjoy. Small, intimate organ used very resourcefully. Not jaw-dropping, mind-blowing or anything, but a charming recording - it's worth listening to one or two of the sonatas on here.

Bears a family resemblance to my favorite John Butt recording, but rather more balanced and careful. (and in a more forgiving acoustic)
Also a wonderful honesty/innocence/directness that brings to mind Piet Wiersma.

Edit: My god, he does take his time in the slow movements! It's bound to cause some debate, but I actually like this a lot, how leisurely the pace is and how we can admire, chew on every phrase. I've never enjoyed the slow movements more! And the fast movements become all the more refreshing afterwards.

Edit 2: added youtube link
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ne5S4LTR2N81zIkjl6-Oh-bjsy7oBT8L0

WTF?????!!!!!!! 12'40 for the adagio of 525. What is it, a little modern chamber organ? Probably not, I'm on 527 now, these are characterful performances, he's tried to give each sonata its own character beyond the melodies. I don't want anyone to think that's an endorsement, it's too early, too challenging.

Have you heard Cage's ASLSP?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Marc

Quote from: Mandryka on April 06, 2020, 02:42:54 AM
WTF?????!!!!!!! 12'40 for the adagio of 525. [...]

Maybe he had just listened to Rübsam's BWV 582 and thought: I can do better than that. ;)

staxomega

Quote from: Traverso on April 02, 2020, 07:34:14 AM



There is good news for organ aficionados,in time there will be a new edition of the Bach / Beekman recordings.




Piet Lindenberg is working on a reissue of the integral recording of Bach's organ oeuvre by the recently deceased organist Bram Beekman.

That reports The Organ Friend in the latest issue. Between 1990 and 1996, Beekman recorded for the LBCD van Lindenberg label all organ works by Bach, played on fourteen historical organs, on nine double CDs. The series has been sold out for years.

Piet Lindenberg has now planned to re-release the entire series in a collection box with textbook, possibly in combination with Beekman's recording of the complete organ oeuvre by César Franck. The cost of the collection box, which should be released next year, will be less than 100 euros.

Interested parties can report to the publisher via pietlindenberg@solcon.nl.


Because other activities took a long time from 2003 onwards, LBCD production almost came to a halt. In 2008 the curtain fell on the store in Rotterdam; a third party at that time managed to improperly annex the LBCD stock. Everything appeared to have ended up in the ram before appropriate measures could be taken. However, the rights and production materials are still owned by Lindenberg Productions BV and owner Piet Lindenberg has decided to revive the label again in 2019. In the older generations, mentioning LBCD is still a direct indication of recognition. There is therefore every reason to continue in the same way (quality and information) and also to introduce the new generation (s) to the label. In addition, the new possibilities of making earlier productions available through streaming are also being examined.

https://www.lindenbergproductions.nl/over-ons/

https://www.rd.nl/muziek/heruitgave-bachintegrale-organist-bram-beekman-1.549733

Thanks very much Traverso, I sent them an email.

bioluminescentsquid

Quote from: Mandryka on April 06, 2020, 02:42:54 AM
WTF?????!!!!!!! 12'40 for the adagio of 525. What is it, a little modern chamber organ? Probably not, I'm on 527 now, these are characterful performances, he's tried to give each sonata its own character beyond the melodies. I don't want anyone to think that's an endorsement, it's too early, too challenging.

Have you heard Cage's ASLSP?

Sort of an interesting organ concept, an organ with only 3 stops in each manual plus a 16' reed (!) in the pedal, conceptually a small chamber organ but optimized for a much larger space.

Something we forget when we think "bigger is better" is that there's something really comforting about having an organ with a limited selection of stops, but where everything blends well with everything else and it's hard to make a bad registration.

I'm sure the Italians are already familiar with this, having played one-manual meantone short octave organs for centuries!

ASLSP: I only wish that I can live to 639 to witness the performance that best conveys Cage's intent! :)

Dry Brett Kavanaugh


JBS

Crosspost from WAYLT
TD
CD7

Overall I am liking this, with all sorts of stuff bundled together almost at random. Chief oddity is that about ten chorales from the Orgelmesse appear well apart from the main group. Recordings date from the 60s and 70s, with some organs being obviously better than others (and I am suspect that at least a couple were heavily "restored" over the years), although the set provides no details on the individual organs.

Program of this CD
Herbert Collum at Reinhardtsgrimma (1731)
Pastorella in F Major BWV 590 rec May 1960
Partita on Gott du Frommer Gott BWV 767 rec July 1965
Christoph Albrecht at Crostau (1732)  rec June 1966
Preludes and Fugues in D Major BWV 532
                                       in c minor BWV 549
                                       in d minor BWV 539
Triosonata IV in e minor BWV 528
Fugue in G Major BWV 576
Prelude and Fugue in C Major BWV 547

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Jo498

The older separate (single/double) issues of the "Silbermann" series that appeared in the late 1990s (and probably earlier as well, of course also on LPs) does have a few pages information the respective organs. So this is probably findable in some organ freaks forum or as scans of the LP covers or so.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

SurprisedByBeauty

Quote from: Jo498 on April 22, 2020, 01:49:22 AM
The older separate (single/double) issues of the "Silbermann" series that appeared in the late 1990s (and probably earlier as well, of course also on LPs) does have a few pages information the respective organs. So this is probably findable in some organ freaks forum or as scans of the LP covers or so.

At least the organs used (although as much might be gleaned from the sparse packaging, too) can be found via _mouse-over_ on the Bach Organ Survey page: https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/09/a-survey-of-bach-organ-cycles.html

All these organs have since seen careful restoration since reunification... some had been in bad shape. But they had been roughly preserved in their state, rather than having been modernized, an much of that thanks to Albert Schweitzer, actually, who was very active in the field of making sure that his beloved organs of central Germany didn't get ruined by insensitive modernization.

bioluminescentsquid

#3179
https://www.crocodilemusic.com/cd/36/#home

An interesting Bach CD - the keyboardist of Sky (and very capable organist/music historian) playing on a 1767 Gerhard organ in Schloeben, Thuringia. Very charming, no-nonsense playing with beautiful, typically "dusty" central German sounds here. This is all judged from the sound samples - anyone familiar with the full recording?

Reminds me that I still need to revisit Weinberger. Also, the parts of Foccroulle Integrale that is recorded on these obscure non-Silbermann central German organs.