J.S. Bach on the Organ

Started by premont, April 29, 2007, 02:16:33 PM

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Antoine Marchand

Absolutely off-topic: Where did you buy your Annie Fischer set, Coop? I want to use your previous research about it  ;).

Bulldog

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 02, 2009, 07:12:28 AM
Has anyone heard these recordings with Piet Kee?

I've had them quite a few years.  Don't remember much except that I find Kee's Trio Sonata in E minor outstanding.

premont

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 02, 2009, 07:12:28 AM
Has anyone heard these recordings with Piet Kee?

As you may suppose I own all of them (except the one with the spurious Eight small Preludes and Fuges which also contains the - spurious??? -Toccata BWV 565). Kee is reliable, offers a bit earthboumd and matter-of-fact playing, but with fine great plenum registrations in the free organ works on these marvellous organs in good sound, reminds me actually a bit of van Oortmerssen, - acquired the CDs as much for the sake of the organs in question. Do not regret it, but concerning the interpretation I much prefer e.g. Alain, Weinberger, Rübsam and Heiller.
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Que

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 02, 2009, 07:12:28 AM
Has anyone heard these recordings with Piet Kee?

Not exactly, but I heard him live: good, solid and straight forward Bach playing in the best Dutch organ tradition, but not remarkable.

Q

Coopmv

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 02, 2009, 09:42:38 AM
Absolutely off-topic: Where did you buy your Annie Fischer set, Coop? I want to use your previous research about it  ;).

I bought it from a US-based e-tailer.

Bulldog

Quote from: premont on March 02, 2009, 11:43:51 AM
As you may suppose I own all of them (except the one with the spurious Eight small Preludes and Fuges which also contains the - spurious??? -Toccata BWV 565).

I know BWV 565 is considererd "spurious", but I can't imagine any other composer of that period coming up with such a compelling organ work.

premont

Quote from: Bulldog on March 02, 2009, 01:30:51 PM
I know BWV 565 is considererd "spurious", but I can't imagine any other composer of that period coming up with such a compelling organ work.

Neither can I, and I am convinced of its authenticity.

Note my question marks.
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Coopmv

It is a foregone conclusion that JS Bach was the composer of bwv 565.

jlaurson

#228
QuoteIt is a foregone conclusion that JS Bach was the composer of bwv 565.
Huh??

Quote from: premont on March 02, 2009, 01:38:37 PM
Neither can I, and I am convinced of its authenticity.
Note my question marks.


Why don't you listen to Bach's "Italian Concerto" Italian concertos or any of his other works _based_ on the works of other composers... then you might be amenable to the idea.
That's the genius of Bach (in part), that he infused it with something very special virtually just by touching it.

(However, I still refuse to give credence to the--not very scientific or evidence-backed, in any case--hypothesis that the Suites are not actually by Bach but his wife, instead.

premont

Quote from: jlaurson on March 02, 2009, 01:47:06 PM
Why don't you listen to Bach's "Italian Concerto" or any of his other works _based_ on the works of other composers... then you might be amenable to the idea.
That's the genius of Bach (in part), that he infused it with something very special virtually just by touching it.

No need, I know all Bach´s instrumental works better than I know my own pocket, so I do not have to listen to them. When I listen to them, I do this to hear, what great artists make of them.

BTW which other work constituted the basis for Bach´s Comcerto in Italian manner?
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Antoine Marchand

Quote from: Coopmv on March 02, 2009, 01:15:34 PM
I bought it from a US-based e-tailer.

It's not too much information  ;D. Thanks, anyway.

Antoine Marchand

#231
Quote from: premont on March 02, 2009, 11:43:51 AM
As you may suppose I own all of them

Your collection, Premont, challenges the possibilities of my mind ;D.

Thanks to all: The opinions about Kee seem rather similar.


P.S.: Has anyone attended concerts by some of the great organists commented here? Que listened to Piet Kee and Premont, probably, to Knud Vad. Anyone else?


premont

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 02, 2009, 07:39:25 PM
P.S.: Has anyone attended concerts by some of the great organists commented here? Que listened to Piet Kee and Premont, probably, to Knud Vad. Anyone else?

Yes. When I was a student in Copenhagen many years ago,  I attended rather many organ recitals, and many of the greatest visited Copenhagen regularily at that time. So I have heard among others Helmut Walcha, Marie-Claire Alain, Anton Heiller, Walter Kraft and Karl Richter, all of them almost exclusively playing Bach. Walcha´s interpretation was like a carbon copy of his recordings, but he also played  his own arrangement of the six-part Ricercare from Mus.Opf., which he for some strange reason never recorded. Anton Heiller, whom I heard four times and Walter Kraft, whom I heard three times, impressed me the most. Strong, concentrated and expressive interpretations, far surpassing their recordings. Both used to conclude the recital with some improvisation in modern but still strict polyphonic style. Karl Richter was not that impressive, but still better than the recordings he had made for DG a few years earlier, and he just played his usual program (I even own a Swiss live CD by him from another recital containing an almost  identical program) BWV 565, 542, 548 and the Sei Gegrüsset Variations of course. 
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71 dB

Quote from: Bulldog on March 02, 2009, 01:30:51 PM
I know BWV 565 is considererd "spurious", but I can't imagine any other composer of that period coming up with such a compelling organ work.

Your imagination is limited. Perhaps BWV 565 was in fact Pachelbel's greatest organ work and copied by J. S. Bach for that reason?
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Bulldog

Quote from: 71 dB on March 03, 2009, 03:19:11 AM
Your imagination is limited. Perhaps BWV 565 was in fact Pachelbel's greatest organ work and copied by J. S. Bach for that reason?

Are you familiar with Pachelbel's organ works?  I have two cycles of them on Centaur and Dorian, and I'd bet my life that Pachelbel had neither the musical talent nor the disposition to write BWV 565.  So you can take your insult and ridiculous speculation and shove it.

nut-job

BWV 565 doesn't sound very "Bach-ish" to my ears, at least in comparison to the other toccata and fugues.  But that doesn't mean I can't believe he wrote it.   The idea that it is Bach's transcription of a virtuoso piece for solo violin, either by Bach or someone else, doesn't seem so far fetched either.  In the end, my only concern is that it is good, and if someone else wrote it, too bad they didn't get credit.

71 dB

Quote from: Bulldog on March 03, 2009, 06:12:55 AM
Are you familiar with Pachelbel's organ works?

Yeah, some of them (Rübsam/Naxos).

Quote from: Bulldog on March 03, 2009, 06:12:55 AMI have two cycles of them on Centaur and Dorian, and I'd bet my life that Pachelbel had neither the musical talent nor the disposition to write BWV 565.  So you can take your insult and ridiculous speculation and shove it.

Don't bet your life for anything. As I said, BWV 565 would be one of Pachelbel's brightest moments. I am not suggesting that BWV 565 is by Pachelbel, I just can imagine such things. If it insults you I am sorry for your thin skin.  ::)

Quote from: nut-job on March 03, 2009, 07:45:51 AM
BWV 565 doesn't sound very "Bach-ish" to my ears, at least in comparison to the other toccata and fugues.

My thoughts exactly. It's not that complex in it's textures. Perhaps that's why it's so popular? 
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW Jan. 2024 "Harpeggiator"

premont

Neither do I hear any Pachelbel at all in BWV 565. Note that we have not got any "proof" that the work was not written by Bach, on the contrary we have the atribution to Bach in the beautiful Rinck manuscript. If the work is written by Bach, it must be a work of his youth. Mind you that he explored the Toccata form eagerly in his youth (e.g. the Toccate manualiter BWV 910-916 and the related Fantasie a-minor BWV 922). All in all I tend to consider BWV 565 an authentic work by Bach.
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karlhenning


nut-job

Quote from: premont on March 03, 2009, 11:17:14 AM
Neither do I hear any Pachelbel at all in BWV 565. Note that we have not got any "proof" that the work was not written by Bach, on the contrary we have the atribution to Bach in the beautiful Rinck manuscript. If the work is written by Bach, it must be a work of his youth. Mind you that he explored the Toccata form eagerly in his youth (e.g. the Toccate manualiter BWV 910-916 and the related Fantasie a-minor BWV 922). All in all I tend to consider BWV 565 an authentic work by Bach.

I would agree with that.  The Toccate BWV910-6 are the most similar within Bach's established works.  If not strictly by Bach, I could imagine it was derived, transcribed, or adapted from something by Buxtehude.