J.S. Bach on the Organ

Started by premont, April 29, 2007, 02:16:33 PM

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Marc

Quote from: Que on April 17, 2009, 11:21:05 PM
Nope, I'm sorry that I have to dissapoint you.  :-\
Bach's organ works are relatively new to me - I'm still scratching the surface of the more generally availble recordings. :)

Q, thanks for reacting anyway.
I discovered Wiersma by coincedence. I walked into the office of the Stichting Oude Groninger Kerken some time ago, hoping that they still had some copies of Lindenberg CD's that were recorded in .... well, oude Groninger kerken. ;)
They didn't have any Lindenberg stuff, but they did have 3 volumes of Wiersma's Bach in Groningen. Probably I was in a mood of throwing some money away, and that's why I bought all three of them. Mind you, it turned out that I only had to pay € 7,50 per 2CD-set. I still consider it good value for money!

Marc

Quote from: premont on April 17, 2009, 01:39:10 PM
Rübsams Philips recording and Naxos recording are as different as day and night. Indeed I like both, even if agree, that the Philips recording is the most exciting. It is fast, brilliant, sometimes wild in expression, but always well controlled. The organ he uses though is rather uninteresting and middle of the road (a neobaroque Metzler organ). The Naxos recording is partly played upon historical organs, and most of it is extremely deliberate, static, sometimes almost approaching stand-still, and some of his registrations are in my ears a bit romantic, but the more I listen to it, the more I manage to get beneath the granite-like surface and become receptive to his individual artistic message, which I would describe as visions about eternity.

Well, I'm not unsympathetic towards giving Rübsam another chance. 0:)

That's why I bought some Naxos discs that were available in local shops. I was happy to buy a disc with the doubtful Trio BWV 584, a piece that is only rarely recorded, AFAIK.

I began listening to a sampler with the odd title The Great Organ Works (Naxos 8.553859). The article 'the' isn't very well chosen, I'd say.

My first experiences with this CD leave me with rather mixed emotions.

The Kellner ;) Toccata & Fuge in d-moll BWV 565 is part of this disc, almost needless to say. I do not mind at all about the ornamentations (on the contrary), and the Toccata, though a bit on the slow side, sounds very good to me. But during the Fugue I was thinking: did anyone destroy this Flentrop organ with an overdose of glue? The rather slow tempo doesn't bother me, but the 'sticky' way of playing is not my cup of tea. Also the lenghtening of some notes and chords are not to my likings. It takes out the driving force of this (probably) young man's piece.

The flow of the 'Little' Fuge in g-moll (BWV 578) is much better realized, despite some 'hesitations'.

I also have less personal difficulties with Rübsam's playing in f.i. the great Praeludium & Fuge in Es-Dur BWV 552 (slow, but monumental) and the choral Ich ruf' zu dir, Herr Jesu Christ, BWV 639. The first note of the choral sounds a bit strange though (overtone?).   

The 'stop and go' way of Rübsam's playing is also part of his interpretation of the beautiful Toccata, Adagio & Fuge in C-Dur BWV 564, but in a more controlled manner. Maybe this composition is better 'Rübsam-proof' ;). Anyway, I enjoyed listening to it.
That's something I've experienced these last months, btw: in Bach's organ music it seems I'm more tolerant towards eccentricities and mannerism compared to his vocal works.

On the other hand: the ever impressive Passacaglia & Fuge in c-moll BWV 582 must be (one of) the slowest existing on disc, and IMO the tension is disappearing the further the piece is developing. Maybe I'll need another dozen listening sessions to appreciate it, but in my favourite organ piece I prefer f.i. Power Biggs, Rogg, Koopman and Beekman (also not that fast, but majestic in an inexorable way) by far.

premont

Well, Marc, I think I implicit referred to Rübsams Naxos cycle as an acquired taste, - which BTW eventually pays - or (to be precise) payed in my case. His tempi are generally slow, but they need to be slow, to manage to contain all the expression he puts into the music. Do not acquire his Naxos AoF at once, this is perhaps the most difficult to "digest".
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Bulldog

Quote from: premont on April 19, 2009, 09:08:28 AM
Well, Marc, I think I implicit referred to Rübsams Naxos cycle as an acquired taste, - which BTW eventually pays - or (to be precise) payed in my case. His tempi are generally slow, but they need to be slow, to manage to contain all the expression he puts into the music. Do not acquire his Naxos AoF at once, this is perhaps the most difficult to "digest".

I very much like Rubsam's Bach (organ and piano).  He's a distinctive and thought-provoking artist.

Marc

Quote from: Bulldog on April 19, 2009, 09:25:12 AM
I very much like Rubsam's Bach (organ and piano).  He's a distinctive and thought-provoking artist.

Can't really say anything on the piano part; for the last couple of years I prefer by far the harpsichord in baroque music.

Distinctive and thought-provoking: yes, that's very much true. But I doubt if Rübsam will ever be one of my distinctive ;) favourites in Bach. Koopman f.i. is also distinctive and thought-provoking, but in a different (read: fast and [sometimes overly] virtuosic) way, and I certainly prefer him.
In the right mood, I can stand and even try to get a notion of Rübsam's ideas, but there's still too much mannerism to my likings. But it's a good thing there are so many different approaches to this music. Variety keeps the listener hungry, wouldn't you agree? Unfortunately this also means it costs me a lot of money. For the rest of this month I'm kinda bankrupt. ;D

Bulldog

Quote from: Marc on April 19, 2009, 09:58:40 AM
Distinctive and thought-provoking: yes, that's very much true. But I doubt if Rübsam will ever be one of my distinctive ;) favourites in Bach. Koopman f.i. is also distinctive and thought-provoking, but in a different (read: fast and [sometimes overly] virtuosic) way, and I certainly prefer him.
In the right mood, I can stand and even try to get a notion of Rübsam's ideas, but there's still too much mannerism to my likings. But it's a good thing there are so many different approaches to this music. Variety keeps the listener hungry, wouldn't you agree? Unfortunately this also means it costs me a lot of money. For the rest of this month I'm kinda bankrupt. ;D

I'll take Rubsam over Koopman every time.  But as you say, variety is the key here.  As for feeling bankrupt, I know that feeling and it sucks.

Marc

Quote from: Bulldog on April 19, 2009, 10:08:56 AM
I'll take Rubsam over Koopman every time. But as you say, variety is the key here.  As for feeling bankrupt, I know that feeling and it sucks.

Well, I'm lucky with my library card. :)
I don't want to make you angry with this, but sometimes I refer to W.R.'s Bach playing with Rübsam ist mühsam.
But if I really disliked his playing that much, I would not have bought 4 Naxos discs of him. So, in the end: he's not bad, he's just different. Bless him! 0:)

Yes, we're all individuals!
Yes, we're all different!

Bulldog

Quote from: Marc on April 19, 2009, 10:15:07 AM
I don't want to make you angry with this, but sometimes I refer to W.R.'s Bach playing with Rübsam ist mühsam.

I can see how you might consider Rubsam's Bach laborious, but I sure don't feel that way about his interpretations.  Anyways, we're cool.

premont

Quote from: Marc on April 19, 2009, 09:58:40 AM
Distinctive and thought-provoking: yes, that's very much true. But I doubt if Rübsam will ever be one of my distinctive ;) favourites in Bach. Koopman f.i. is also distinctive and thought-provoking, but in a different (read: fast and [sometimes overly] virtuosic) way, and I certainly prefer him.
In the right mood, I can stand and even try to get a notion of Rübsam's ideas, but there's still too much mannerism to my likings. But it's a good thing there are so many different approaches to this music.

Even I would take Rübsam over Koopman every time. Not the least because of Koopman´s untidy mannerisms, which I often find irritating. Just listen to the way he (in the DG recording) adorns the Fugue theme of BWV 538 (the Dorian T+F).
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Marc

Quote from: premont on April 19, 2009, 10:51:18 AM
Even I would take Rübsam over Koopman every time. Not the least because of Koopman´s untidy mannerisms, which I often find irritating. Just listen to the way he (in the DG recording) adorns the Fugue theme of BWV 538 (the Dorian T+F).

Ha!
Koopman and his joyous adornments!
(I think Harnoncourt doesn't believe in all those self-invented ornamentations, either. I remember an interview where he way saying something like: "just play the ornamentations that Bach wrote down himself". Problem though: there aren't that many original handwritings of his organ works left, AFAIK.)

Just a small side-step:
This afternoon I saw on the telly the last 20 minutes or so of a documentary about the Oscar Back violinist concours in the Netherlands. Oscar Back, a Hungarian violin teacher, who lived in Amsterdam for a great part of his life, was quoted: "you don't have to wear a beard if you want to play Bach". In those days, Bach apparently was mainly considered a very serious wig, only to be understood by serious elder people.
Well, maybe there you have the main difference between two 'mannered' Bach interpreters Rübsam and Koopman.
Rübsam is not wearing a beard (he's wearing an impressive moustache, though), but in a way he's playing Bach like he wears one. Slow, very thoughtful, sometimes trying to stop time from going on, as though the old bearded wig would not accept that time waits for no one, or even trying to achieve some kind of an afterlife already. Comparable with Celibidache? (he asked hesitatingly).
Koopman is wearing a beard. And Koopman is growing older, too, but doesn't seem to bother about those things. He's still playing Bach like he's some enthousiastic adolescent, full of life. Sometimes that can be irritating, I agree with you. One has to be in the right mood for that. But maybe I still want to feel like an adolescent myself, because in most cases Koopman's organ playing is able to make me feel good and give me new energy.

Well, I guess that's it for today. I'm off to bed!
Nice talking with both of you, Bulldog and Premont, despite the different opinions here and there. See ya again on the board.

premont

Quote from: Marc on April 19, 2009, 12:01:52 PM
Rübsam is not wearing a beard (he's wearing an impressive moustache, though), but in a way he's playing Bach like he wears one. Slow, very thoughtful, sometimes trying to stop time from going on, as though the old bearded wig would not accept that time waits for no one, or even trying to achieve some kind of an afterlife already.

Thi is very much what I think too, but I would not call him mannered in the usual sense. I think his agogics are rather spontaneous, and would expect two performances of the same work by him to be somewhat different as to musical content.




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Coopmv

You will be amused at reading the wiki page on Wolfgang Rübsam.  He actually works part-time at a barber shop in Indiana ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_R%C3%BCbsam

Marc

Quote from: Coopmv on April 20, 2009, 04:53:36 PM
You will be amused at reading the wiki page on Wolfgang Rübsam.  He actually works part-time at a barber shop in Indiana ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_R%C3%BCbsam

:)

Someone should compose an opera about him!

Antoine Marchand

Quote from: Marc on April 20, 2009, 08:43:45 PM
:)

Someone should compose an opera about him!

Today I was reading the book Sculpting in time of the Russian cinema director Andrei Tarkovski, when I found this:

"I am always lost in admiration for those medieval Japanese artists who worked in the court of their Shogun until they had achieved recognition, and then, at the peak of their fame, would change their entire lives by going off in secret to a new place to start working again under a different name and in another style. Some are known to have lived up to five distinct lives. That is freedom!"

I immediately recalled these messages about Rübsam.

Bulldog

Quote from: Coopmv on April 20, 2009, 04:53:36 PM
You will be amused at reading the wiki page on Wolfgang Rübsam.  He actually works part-time at a barber shop in Indiana ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfgang_R%C3%BCbsam

Since Rubsam owns the shop, he can work as many or few hours as he wants.  Cutting hair requires admirable dexterity of the hands and fingers.

Coopmv

#375
For those who know this Gerhard Weinberger's set well, which is the best CD in this set?  I just ordered this set from MDT two days ago ...




Bulldog

#376
Quote from: Coopmv on April 25, 2009, 07:01:48 AM
For those who know this Gerhard Weinberger's set well, which is the best CD in this set?  I just ordered this set from MDT two days ago ...





Those discs that have the Orgelbüchlein, Leipzig Chorales and Art of Fugue.

Coopmv

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 22, 2009, 07:47:08 PM
Today I was reading the book Sculpting in time of the Russian cinema director Andrei Tarkovski, when I found this:

"I am always lost in admiration for those medieval Japanese artists who worked in the court of their Shogun until they had achieved recognition, and then, at the peak of their fame, would change their entire lives by going off in secret to a new place to start working again under a different name and in another style. Some are known to have lived up to five distinct lives. That is freedom!"

I immediately recalled these messages about Rübsam.


Rübsam seems to be a humble person who does not want to put himself on the pedestal, a trap many artists who have achieved some fame always fall into ...

Coopmv

While Margaret Phillips has been billed as one of the most outstanding organists in England, after I have listened to the first of the four 2-CD sets on the Regent label I have recently bought from MDT, I still have not been charmed by her performance.  Her performance of the Schubler Chorale sounds nice, but I like Daniel Chorzempa better ... 




Bulldog

Quote from: Coopmv on April 25, 2009, 09:09:37 AM
While Margaret Phillips has been billed as one of the most outstanding organists in England, after I have listened to the first of the four 2-CD sets on the Regent label I have recently bought from MDT, I still have not been charmed by her performance.  Her performance of the Schubler Chorale sounds nice, but I like Daniel Chorzempa better ... 





Sorry to hear that you're not pleased with the first set.  Maybe things will improve as you progress.