J.S. Bach on the Organ

Started by premont, April 29, 2007, 02:16:33 PM

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Marc

#480
Quote from: Coopmv on August 02, 2009, 04:16:35 AM
You lucky Dutch.  We Americans only have mainly second-rate organists.

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 02, 2009, 07:57:23 AM
That is not completely right, Coop. Just these days –in Chile!- I have been listening to recordings by George Ritchie, Joan Lippincott, Christa Rakich (although I don't know if she was born in the United States, but teaches and plays there). All of them excellent in Bach. Probably, you are a little bit lazy too, my friend. ;D

P.S.: Anyway, those Dutchmen are incredibly lucky guys.  ;)

Coop wrote: mainly. :P
But maybe every country has mainly second-rate organists. If you would count them all .....
I don't know that many American organisats and I certainly couldn't and wouldn't judge them 'all', but E. Power Biggs (Rest In Peace), Daniel Chorzempa (now living in Italy) and George Ritchie were/are very skilled, IMHO. From what I've heard, I'm not particularly fond of Virgil Fox, though he did a nice job in trying to make this instrument more popular with his 'Heavy Organ' concerts.

And yes, we are very lucky people in Dutch-land. But not everyone here seems to realize that.

Bulldog

Quote from: Marc on August 02, 2009, 10:09:24 AM
Coop wrote: mainly. :P
But maybe every country has mainly second-rate organists. If you would count them all .....

Well put.

Coopmv

Quote from: Marc on August 02, 2009, 10:09:24 AM
Coop wrote: mainly.
But maybe every country has mainly second-rate organists. If you would count them all .....
I don't know that many American organisats and I certainly couldn't and wouldn't judge them 'all', but E. Power Biggs (Rest In Peace), Daniel Chorzempa (now living in Italy) and George Ritchie were/are very skilled, IMHO. From what I've heard, I'm not particularly fond of Virgil Fox, though he did a nice job in trying to make this instrument more popular with his 'Heavy Organ' concerts.

And yes, we are very lucky people in Dutch-land. But not everyone here seems to realize that.

I said "mainly" and referred only to living American organists.  I like Chorzempa and he is the exception.  BTW, I have most of his recordings.  Lets give credit where credit is due.  I am very discriminating as a collector and have no desire to collect the complete Bach Organ Works by 50 different organists.

Antoine Marchand

Quote from: Marc on August 02, 2009, 10:09:24 AM
Coop wrote: mainly.

Well, I wrote "that's not completely right".  :)

We agree in the rest, Marc.

BTW, Christa Rakich is really excellent. Here some comments and one sample of her Bach Trio Sonatas:

https://www.gothic-catalog.com/J_S_Bach_Trio_Sonatas_Christa_Rakich_2_CDs_p/lrcd-1102-03.htm


Antoine Marchand

#484
Quote from: Coopmv on August 02, 2009, 10:22:36 AM
I am very discriminating as a collector and have no desire to collect the complete Bach Organ Works by 50 different organists.

Especially when they have not been recorded on a "major label", I think.

Bulldog

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 02, 2009, 10:28:22 AM
Well, I wrote "that's not completely right".  :)

We agree in the rest, Marc.

BTW, Christa Rakich is really excellent. Here some comments and one sample of her Bach Trio Sonatas:

https://www.gothic-catalog.com/J_S_Bach_Trio_Sonatas_Christa_Rakich_2_CDs_p/lrcd-1102-03.htm



That was a wonderful sample; I'll have to get me some of that.  I've had a soft spot for the Loft label for many years.  Some folks think that these "organ labels" are just for people interested in organs, but I've found some very compelling performances.

premont

Quote from: Marc on July 26, 2009, 10:53:29 AM
What about André Isoir?

Today I listened to his two The Great Toccatas discs, and I certainly prefer the first one, played in 1975 on the Ahrend organ of the Lambertikirche in Aurich, Germany. I also like the Ahrend organ sound more than that of the Grenzing organ in Saint-Cyprién (Dordogne, France), where the latter was recorded in 1993.

As far as the interpretations are concerned: Isoir seems more innerly involved and more at ease with the pieces in the seventies recording. Especially BWV 565 and 542 are really a joy to listen to! There might be a certain softness in his approach, but after listening to (f.i.) George Ritchie it was some kind of a 'relief' .... well, apparently there's a Bach for each and every mood. :)
(The track index on my 1975 Isoir copy isn't correct though: one should reverse BWV 540 & 538!)

Agree completely on Isoir´s two Bach Toccata CDs. Isoir has lost some of his earlier "bite". And the Ahrend organ is a neo-baroque organ of the usual kind, which we are used to listen to in Bach (like Metzler and Marcussen), but the Grenzing organ is an individual type, which IMO is unsuited for baroque music. As to Ritchie I have listened to the lions share of his 11 CD "integral" yesterday and to day (only had listened to this once earlier about three years ago), and I am impressed by his simple registrations and scholary articulation (in this respect - only this - much the same approach as Kooiman and Beekman), and he also reminds me a lot of Hans Fagius with his rather fast tempi and a hint of nervous energy. But I am  not overwhelmed by the mostly newly built American organs Ritchie uses, which I find unsensational to say the least - compared to similar European organs.
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premont

Quote from: Marc on July 29, 2009, 12:02:47 PM
No, seriously, I'm in heaven after attending a recital of Jacques van Oortmerssen, playing the Schnitger/Hinsz organ of the Martinikerk in Groningen, NL.
Buxtehude, Scheidemann, Mendelssohn, J.L. Krebs, and the finishing touch was .... the eternal Pasacaglia & Thema Fugatum in C minor, BWV 582.

As you may expect you succeed in making me rather envious. But fortunately I have a good forum friend in Holland, who is very kind and keeps me ájour as to Dutch organ playing. :)
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premont

Quote from: Marc on August 01, 2009, 12:19:03 PM
Part of the third integral?

AoF and this recording of the Concerto-arrangements were not part of the third integral.
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Marc

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 02, 2009, 10:28:22 AM
Well, I wrote "that's not completely right".  :)

We agree in the rest, Marc.

Yes, we sort of do, in a way, don't we? ;)

Quote from: Antoine Marchand
BTW, Christa Rakich is really excellent. Here some comments and one sample of her Bach Trio Sonatas:

https://www.gothic-catalog.com/J_S_Bach_Trio_Sonatas_Christa_Rakich_2_CDs_p/lrcd-1102-03.htm

Why didn't they credit Papageno on the cd-sleeve? ;D
Nice sample of the sonata, but I missed some involved playfulness in Rakich' organ playing. The vividness is now mainly created by the Glockenspiel. But the entire 2-cd has an interesting program, no doubt.

Marc

#490
Quote from: premont on August 02, 2009, 01:57:24 PM
[....]
As to Ritchie I have listened to the lions share of his 11 CD "integral" yesterday and to day (only had listened to this once earlier about three years ago), and I am impressed by his simple registrations and scholary articulation (in this respect - only this - much the same approach as Kooiman and Beekman), and he also reminds me a lot of Hans Fagius with his rather fast tempi and a hint of nervous energy. But I am not overwhelmed by the mostly newly built American organs Ritchie uses, which I find unsensational to say the least - compared to similar European organs.

I didn't mean to be negative about Ritchie. I just wanted to give some idea about the contrast of playing between him and Isoir, with Ritchie giving a more heavier approach. I like them both, though. Funny you mention the names of Kooiman et al. Kooiman & Beekman were the first who came to my mind when I recently 'discovered' Ritchie and listened to some of his recordings.
Fagius has been mentioned some times before in this thread. As I've stated before, it's difficult to disappoint me in this oeuvre :), but I think he is slightly underrated. He got some negative reviews in NL after the release of the Brilliant Bach collection in 2000, but IMHO they did not do him justice. But Dutch music reviewers can be rather chauvinistic. Which, when organ playing is concerned, is imaginable. These chauvinistic elements can be found at any place around the world, btw (Gramophone!).

Quote from: premont on August 02, 2009, 02:02:44 PM
As you may expect you succeed in making me rather envious. But fortunately I have a good forum friend in Holland, who is very kind and keeps me ájour as to Dutch organ playing. :)

:P
You're welcome!

Marc

#491
This interesting story was posted in the Bach's Bungalow thread, about the Otto Winter vs Miklós Spányi 'conspiracy':

Quote from: premont on July 23, 2009, 02:24:25 PM
Interesting information in the Amazon com forum from a poster "Wachovia":
"Otto Winter is not the actual organist!
The real organist is MIKLOS SPANYI of Hungary.
He made the recording in 1987 and sold it to a german record producer. That record producer sold Spanyi's recording to several labels. Such as Point, Madacy, etc.
Some cds say Otto Winter at a Silbermann Organ.
Inactuality it is Miklos Spanyi at the Calvary Chuch in Szombathely, Hungary. The organ was built by the Eule Orgelbou of Germany.
Mr. Spanyi himself emailed this information to me.
Otto Winter is not an organist at all."


Link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/ADCES8TQLRK34

This information is confirmed on this site:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/NVP/Spanyi.htm
(With Spányi himself as one of the contributors.)

[Spanyi's Hungaroton recordings] were issued on CD by quite many low price labels, partly with Miklós Spányi name, partly with the false name 'Otto Winter' (Hungaroton sold the materials to someone who made with it what he wanted...). Unfortunately some labels added two pieces Miklós Spányi has not recorded or not this way:
-Prelude & Fugue in E flat major, BWV 552: Miklós Spányi has never recorded it (unfortunately... he still hopes to do it one day)
-Toccata & Fugue in D minor, BWV 565: Miklós Spányi has recorded it as part of the 'Hungaroton' material but some of 'his' CD's contain it in a 'false' form, played by someone else. However, some publications of the same CD's contain his genuine recording of the piece. His version is about 8:30, recordings considerably longer that this are consequently played by someone else. Also the pitch of my recording is a1=415 Hz, the 'false' versions are all in modern, high pitch. Some labels added 'on Silbermann organ' which isn't true: the instrument in question was a small organ in Szombathely, Hungary, built in 1986 by Eule, Germany, well in Silbermann's style.


Right now I'm listening to the Dorian Toccata, played by Spányi.
In short: his performance may not be of the 'digging deep' kind, it's however very vivid and playful, IMO. Indeed there's this specific 'granular' Silbermann sound of the Eule organ. The 2-cd I recently purchased is marketed by a label called Forum, and it contains the 'Point-label' recordings, with the genuine BWV 565 performance (sigh of relief ;)).

[LATE EDIT:
The 2-cd track list is here (forget about the Silbermann mentioning):
http://www.downeden.com/J-S-Bach-Famous-Organ-Works-Miklos-Spanyi-Silbermann-Organ_71035.html]

About the organist: Spányi is also an enthousiastic player of the harpsichord, clavichord and the tangent piano. Let's forget about this Otto Winter, let's focus on Miklós Spányi.

Has anyone else heard some Bach recordings of him? And if so: what's your opinion?


premont

Quote from: Marc on August 08, 2009, 12:13:38 PM
...Unfortunately some labels added two pieces Miklós Spányi has not recorded or not this way:
-Prelude & Fugue in E flat major, BWV 552: Miklós Spányi has never recorded it (unfortunately... he still hopes to do it one day)
-Toccata & Fugue in D minor, BWV 565: Miklós Spányi has recorded it as part of the 'Hungaroton' material but some of 'his' CD's contain it in a 'false' form, played by someone else. However, some publications of the same CD's contain his genuine recording of the piece. His version is about 8:30, recordings considerably longer that this are consequently played by someone else. Also the pitch of my recording is a1=415 Hz, the 'false' versions are all in modern, high pitch.

Maybe I own about 6 or 7 releases of Bach organ works indicated on the sleeve to be played by Spanyi, Winter and other strange names, most of which I suspect to be the Spanyi recordings. Your link to the Spanyi list and the reference to the pitch and playing time will turn very helpful in the process of clearing things up. In the Amado 40 CD box there are two versions of BWV 565, the one indicated to be by Spanyi, the other by Winter. Confusion, yes, but your post tells me that one of them probably is by Spanyi - but which one - well probably the best one, as indicated on the sleeve. I have found a recording of BWV 565 indicated to be by Eberhard Kraus and which is almost similar to the Winter recording in this box, maybe some editing has taken place, and I much suspect that Kraus is the real organist for this recording. I shall look further into this later.

I agree on your words about Spanyi´s Dorian. Vivid and playful, and rather energetic, - a middle of the road performance I think.

It is late now, I am going to email you to morrow about Rübsam, Wiersma 2 & 7 et.c. I must say now, that Wiersma convinced me from the first listen, and he continues to convince me more and more, the more I listen to him.
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Marc

Quote from: premont on August 08, 2009, 01:15:17 PM
Maybe I own about 6 or 7 releases of Bach organ works indicated on the sleeve to be played by Spanyi, Winter and other strange names, most of which I suspect to be the Spanyi recordings. Your link to the Spanyi list and the reference to the pitch and playing time will turn very helpful in the process of clearing things up. In the Amado 40 CD box there are two versions of BWV 565, the one indicated to be by Spanyi, the other by Winter. Confusion, yes, but your post tells me that one of them probably is by Spanyi - but which one - well probably the best one, as indicated on the sleeve. I have found a recording of BWV 565 indicated to be by Eberhard Kraus and which is almost similar to the Winter recording in this box, maybe some editing has taken place, and I much suspect that Kraus is the real organist for this recording. I shall look further into this later.

Well, maybe this turns out to be a life long investigation ;D, because in the beginning of the nineties the cd world was 'poisoned' by tons of ghost performances, issued by minor labels.

Quote from: premont
I agree on your words about Spanyi´s Dorian. Vivid and playful, and rather energetic, - a middle of the road performance I think.

Concerning and confirming our common opinion about Spányi: indeed, nice to listen to, but these aren't performances that will sink in for eternity.

Quote from: premont
It is late now, I am going to email you to morrow about Rübsam, Wiersma 2 & 7 et.c. I must say now, that Wiersma convinced me from the first listen, and he continues to convince me more and more, the more I listen to him.

Concerning your opinion about Piet Wiersma (or any other Bach organist): please do not hesitate to post them in this thread, too. :)

Marc

Quote from: premont on August 08, 2009, 01:15:17 PM
Maybe I own about 6 or 7 releases of Bach organ works indicated on the sleeve to be played by Spanyi, Winter and other strange names [....]

Well, we know now that Spányi isn't a strange name at all. :)
Otto Winter is indeed a misleading tricky name, probably a combination of Helmut Winter and Hans Otto. In earlier years, suspect budget labels wanted to fool the not-really-informed-classical-music-buyers with these kind of quasi-familiar names. Conductors like Leonard Maag conducting some Festival Orchestra, or something like that.

premont

Quote from: Marc on August 09, 2009, 11:17:34 AM
Otto Winter is indeed a misleading tricky name, probably a combination of Helmut Winter and Hans Otto.

There was a not very prominent oboíst in W Germany (Frankfurt am Main or Köln based, I think) in the 1950es and 1960es named Otto Winter. He recorded some baroque music with Mainzer Kammerorchester / Günter Kehr. Perhaps he even played third oboe in Kehr´s recording of the First Brandenburg concerto for Vox 1958.
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Antoine Marchand

#496
New Olde - Reissues of Particular Interest:

J.S. Bach. Complete Organ Works. Ricercar (16 CDs? The last issue contained 18 CDs). Bernard Foccroulle. Budget reissue of this excellent set performed on historical North German organs.

http://www.amazon.fr/Oeuvre-DOrgue-Integrale-Jean-Sebastien/dp/B002JIBCRQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251812596&sr=8-1

P.S.: I needed to add the second picture.  ;D


Marc

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 01, 2009, 05:52:02 AM
New Olde - Reissues of Particular Interest:

J.S. Bach. Complete Organ Works. Ricercar (16 CDs? The last issue contained 18 CDs). Bernard Foccroulle. Budget reissue of this excellent set performed on historical North German organs.

http://www.amazon.fr/Oeuvre-DOrgue-Integrale-Jean-Sebastien/dp/B002JIBCRQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251812596&sr=8-1

Thanks for the info!
Very good news. I only have a recent recording of him on the Groningen Martini organ, which is a fine one. I'll keep this reissue in mind!

premont

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 01, 2009, 05:52:02 AM
New Olde - Reissues of Particular Interest:

J.S. Bach. Complete Organ Works. Ricercar (16 CDs? The last issue contained 18 CDs). Bernard Foccroulle. Budget reissue of this excellent set performed on historical North German organs.


Thanks for the information about this long waited rerelease. Even if I own about 45 % of the original release, I always wanted to hear the rest of the set.
   
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Sorin Eushayson

#499
Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 01, 2009, 05:52:02 AM
P.S.: I needed to add the second picture.  ;D

Well now that I know that small Mongolian community approves I must have that album!!!  :P

Seriously though, that looks like a set worth considering.  Doesn't look available in the States yet, though...  :-\