J.S. Bach on the Organ

Started by premont, April 29, 2007, 02:16:33 PM

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Antoine Marchand

Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on September 05, 2009, 04:23:36 PM
... that looks like a set worth considering.  Doesn't look available in the States yet, though...  :-\

Don't worry, Sorin. It's the situation even in Europe yet:

http://www.amazon.fr/Oeuvre-DOrgue-Integrale-Jean-Sebastien/dp/B002JIBCRQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1251812596&sr=8-1

:)

Antoine Marchand

#501
Quote from: premont on September 19, 2009, 10:07:59 AM
Helmut Walchas Art of Fugue

Hi, Premont.

How many times recorded Walcha the AoF? I have been listening his mono set on Documents and I am very impressed with him.

My apologies to the lovers of the historical recordings, but for the first time in my life I have enjoyed some recording of the forties (1947). But that set does'n include the AoF. Are there more than one version?

Thanks in advance.


premont

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 19, 2009, 10:32:32 AM
How many times recorded Walcha the AoF? ...  Are there more than one version?

Unfortunately he only got the interest of the AoF rather late in his career, when he was in his late 40´es, and he recorded it only once. This was in 1956 for Archiv on the Hagbeer/FC Schnitger organ in Sct.Laurents Church in Alkmaar, NL. I think he realised, that he could not improve upon this recording. Also the recorded sound is good for its age, even if it was said, that this was DG´s first stereo recording ever. The engineer was the famous Erich Thiesenhaus. BTW Walcha often performed the work in the years to come, - my elder sister heard him perform it in München about 1967, and she was certainly impressed. The AoF is contained in his Stereo Bach integral, this is the reason why this set occupies 12 CDs, as opposed to the 10 CDs of the Mono integral. DG Archive has also released the AoF separately on two CDs in an improved mastering. Link to this:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Die-Kunst-der-Fuge-BWV-1080/hnum/8784091

Another firm (Idis) has also released his AoF on two CDs, but - as far as I been told - the sound of this release is somewhat distorted, since probably the LP Archiv rerelease from the late 1970´es was used as source material, and this set is unfortunately concerning the AoF (and rather unusual for Archiv) distorted in the loud passages. So avoid the Idis and get the Archiv release, if you do not acquire the entire Archiv Stereo set. This contains recordings fron 1956 and 1962 on the above mentioned organ, and recordings from around 1970 on the said Silbermann but in fact very much Alfred Kern organ in a church in Strassbourg, the name of which I do not recall at the moment (I am not in my home just now). On this organ he recorded the Leipzig-chorales, the Orgelbüchlein, Clavierübung III and other chorales as well as a smal part of the choral-free works, mostly the youthful works. I would say,that he got more Apollonian with time (you know, what I mean). This is also true of his rerecording for Archiv of the WTC from the early 1970es and even of his last recordings, the Organ masters before Bach (Buxtehude, Bruhns et.c.)- set from 1976, released 1977.
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Antoine Marchand

#503
Quote from: premont on September 19, 2009, 01:10:43 PM
Unfortunately he only got the interest of the AoF rather late in his career, when he was in his late 40´es, and he recorded it only once. This was in 1956 for Archiv on the Hagbeer/FC Schnitger organ in Sct.Laurents Church in Alkmaar, NL. I think he realised, that he could not improve upon this recording. Also the recorded sound is good for its age, even if it was said, that this was DG´s first stereo recording ever. The engineer was the famous Erich Thiesenhaus. BTW Walcha often performed the work in the years to come, - my elder sister heard him perform it in München about 1967, and she was certainly impressed. The AoF is contained in his Stereo Bach integral, this is the reason why this set occupies 12 CDs, as opposed to the 10 CDs of the Mono integral. DG Archive has also released the AoF separately on two CDs in an improved mastering. Link to this:

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Johann-Sebastian-Bach-Die-Kunst-der-Fuge-BWV-1080/hnum/8784091

Another firm (Idis) has also released his AoF on two CDs, but - as far as I been told - the sound of this release is somewhat distorted, since probably the LP Archiv rerelease from the late 1970´es was used as source material, and this set is unfortunately concerning the AoF (and rather unusual for Archiv) distorted in the loud passages. So avoid the Idis and get the Archiv release, if you do not acquire the entire Archiv Stereo set. This contains recordings fron 1956 and 1962 on the above mentioned organ, and recordings from around 1970 on the said Silbermann but in fact very much Alfred Kern organ in a church in Strassbourg, the name of which I do not recall at the moment (I am not in my home just now). On this organ he recorded the Leipzig-chorales, the Orgelbüchlein, Clavierübung III and other chorales as well as a smal part of the choral-free works, mostly the youthful works. I would say,that he got more Apollonian with time (you know, what I mean). This is also true of his rerecording for Archiv of the WTC from the early 1970es and even of his last recordings, the Organ masters before Bach (Buxtehude, Bruhns et.c.)- set from 1976, released 1977.


Great reply, Premont.  :o

It's crystal clear now. You're my Bach guru!

I was confused because the Idis disc is dated 1956/52, ADD/m, on JPC. But probably the mono pieces are the Toccata & Fuge BWV 565 or the Passacaglia & Fuge BWV 582 or both of them, also included there.  

Thank you very, very much; my previous "thanks in advance" is totally insufficient.

:)

premont

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 19, 2009, 02:36:57 PM
It's crystal clear now. You're my Bach guru!
I was confused because the Idis disc is dated 1956/52, ADD/m, on JPC. But probably the mono pieces are the Toccata & Fuge BWV 565 or the Passacaglia & Fuge BWV 582 or both of them, also included there.  

The rear side of the Isis release tells, that the BWV 565 is the Mono recording from 1947 (Stellwagen/Sct.Jacobi/Lübeck) and the BWV 582 is the Mono recording from 1952 (Schnitger/Sct. Peter and Paul/Cappel).
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Mandryka

Quote from: premont on September 19, 2009, 01:10:43 PM
I would say,that he got more Apollonian with time (you know, what I mean). .

I would say that his AoF is a bit Apollonian, even though it isn't so late. In fact, that's a feauture of it which rather puts me off-- If I want to hear it on organ I tend to reach for Rogg or Tachezi
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

premont

Quote from: Mandryka on September 19, 2009, 10:23:41 PM
I would say that his AoF is a bit Apollonian, even though it isn't so late. In fact, that's a feauture of it which rather puts me off-- If I want to hear it on organ I tend to reach for Rogg or Tachezi

His style was somewhat apollonian from the beginning of his recording career, but it got more apollonian with time. Interesting though that you prefer Rogg and Tachezi, whose AoF I find at least as apollonian as Walchas AoF.
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Mandryka

#507
Rogg seems more colourful.

Tachezi -- there's a sort of architecture. I can't really explain it but I always felt some sort of inevitability about the whole thing (sorry for the meaningless cliché.) Tachezi is my favourite.

I have always disliked Walcha in AoF -- it's one of those things. I always feel that he lacks grace and charisma, -- whenever I hear him I always think of Lurch playing the organ in the Addams family.

I appreciate that this is probably me rather than Walcha! Lots of people with good judgement seem to like him. Every so often I get the recording out and give it another go. One day I may find myself liking it.

Who is dionysian (on the organ) in this?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

premont

Well, I know 32 organ recordings of the AoF, and I would call none of them dionysian.

Agree about the feeling of urgency and inner logic in Tachezi´s recording, but I find Walcha´s recording even stronger in that respect.

As to the colourfulness of Rogg: I think it depends more of the organ he uses. When his recording was released for the first time (LP ca 1973), Grammophone´s reviewer complained about the organ, which he thought was lacking in colour and character. Now I have heard this organ in the real life played by a number of great organists, and it is indeed a colourful organ with much character. But I do not find the sound of this modern neo-baroque organ  ideally suited for Bach. In that respect I find the Alkmaar organ stylistically better.
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Mandryka

Quote from: premont on September 20, 2009, 02:00:53 PM
Well, I know 32 organ recordings of the AoF, and I would call none of them dionysian.

Agree about the feeling of urgency and inner logic in Tachezi´s recording, but I find Walcha´s recording even stronger in that respect.

As to the colourfulness of Rogg: I think it depends more of the organ he uses. When his recording was released for the first time (LP ca 1973), Grammophone´s reviewer complained about the organ, which he thought was lacking in colour and character. Now I have heard this organ in the real life played by a number of great organists, and it is indeed a colourful organ with much character. But I do not find the sound of this modern neo-baroque organ  ideally suited for Bach. In that respect I find the Alkmaar organ stylistically better.


Amazing that the

I'm gonna give HW another go this week!
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Marc

Hi there, folks!
Having some major PC problems at home, now sending a message from outer space, the countryside of Groningen province, Netherlands.
Had a nice conclusion of the organ season today, by joining a In Memoriam Ewald Kooiman concert by organist Jan Luth on the Hinsz-organ in Leens.

Never heard this instrument live, but it surely was a great experience, although the church was bl.... cold.
Lots of Bach, and also pieces of the Manuscrit Susanne van Soldt, combined with choral singing of psalms and chorales.

Well, Kooiman has 'grown' to be my favourite Bach interpreter, and I think this concert was a decent and worthy farewell to him.
Afterwards we had a short talk with the organist, very technical stuff about meantone and well-tempered temperaments which I did not entirely understand (did not understand entirely?), and some laughter too.

That's all for now, folks!
Visiting my uncle and auntie, using their PC and drinking my auntie's nice coffee, I salute you!

premont

To day I have visited the homepage of the Dutch organist Aarnoud de Groen

http://www.aarnouddegroen.com/indexEn.htm

in order to listen to some of the Bach recordings, he has published there in the shape of downloadable MP3 files or as YouTube video´s. He is a most disciplined and informed musician with a considerable command of the organ. In the great chorale free works (BWV 543, 546 and 548 e.g) his tempi are fast (but not too fast - everything is well controlled) and he uses most often full and unvaried plenum sound.  All in all he reminds me a lot of the "young" Wolfgang Rübsam, as we know him from his 1977 Philips integral. So you ought to pay him (de Groen) a visit, - you will not regret.
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Opus106

Thanks for the link, Premont. :) Listening to BWV 582 as I type.
Regards,
Navneeth

Marc

Another thanks here!

BTW, there's another Dutch organist who has just started with another Bach integral: Cor Ardesch.
His website is only in Dutch, though.

Two volumes have been produced by now:
http://www.corardesch.nl/bach2c_deel_1.html
http://www.corardesch.nl/cd27s.html

Maybe, if one's interested, it is possible to order these from abroad.
His mail-address is: info@corardesch.nl.

I have Volume 1, and it's good listening without a doubt.
I think he isn't an ancient music or Bach specialist, and if I would dare to mention a name for comparision, it would be .... a younger version of .... Piet Kee? ???
But I do this with lots of hesitation. Mr. Premont is far more 'auscultated' than I am. 0:)

premont

#514
And thanks here, Marc.
I have read so much Dutch during the last months, that I probably shall find out. :)
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premont

Quote from: Marc on November 01, 2009, 09:23:43 AM
I think he isn't an ancient music or Bach specialist, and if I would dare to mention a name for comparision, it would be .... a younger version of .... Piet Kee? ???

Well, the young Piet Kee was not that different from the old Piet Kee, if I am to judge from those of his Bach recordings I know from the 1960es (BWV 565 and 542 for His Masters Voice on the Schnitger/Alkmaar organ and BWV 546 for Telefunken - on the same organ IIRC). The general impression and impact was similar, with massive registrations and the interpretation a bit pedestrian. I find it difficult to imagine a young Piet Kee other than this.
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Marc

I must listen to Kee again, then.

But I think I have only the 'old' Kee at home.

BTW, I wrote younger version of Kee, which isn't the same as 'like the young Kee'. :)

I think I meant to say: Ardesch' playing is a bit similar (which conclusion could be my mistake :-[), but as he's younger than Kee he's more influenced by HIP-traditions.

Anyway, feel free to order a disc and judge for yourself. In his integral Ardesch is playing on a brand new organ in the Grote Kerk of Dordrecht. It was built with the Silbermann organ of Freiberg Cathedral in mind. Before Ardesch started his Dordrecht integral, he already recorded a Bach-disc in Freiberg:
http://www.corardesch.nl/freiberg.html

For those who are interested: maybe that's a nice one to start with.

Oh, and a special observation for opus106: this Freiberg recording has got a performance of BWV 582! :D

Opus106

Quote from: Marc on November 01, 2009, 02:51:13 PM
Oh, and a special observation for opus106: this Freiberg recording has got a performance of BWV 582! :D

Duly noted. :D
Regards,
Navneeth

Marc

Well, after some searching in my own house I found some Kee & Ardesch stuff. :D
Reading a booklet learned me (probably again) that Ardesch was a pupil of Kee. Maybe this 'knowledge' was somewhere way back on my personal hard-disk yesterday evening (the one in between my ears).

Speaking about ears: I entered the night with Bach & Piet Kee. Had not listened to this one for months.
http://www.jsbach.org/keepietkeeplaysbachvol1.html

Well, I have to say that it was somehow tiring to listen to it. Like the 'old' Rübsam (Naxos) he's slowing down from time to time, but I do not know what he wants to achieve with that. Rübsam gives the impression that he wants the time to be stopped .... and who doesn't, when one listens to Bach? With Kee, this effect isn't achieved, IMHO. In the end, especially in the chorales, I would call his way of playing rather shredded.

I began this day with Bach & Cor Ardesch (the Freiberg disc).
Indeed, his playing is far more organic than Kee, although there's also some stiffness and inflexibility (the 'famous' Dutch protestantic influence?).
To some, the recording might be too spatial, but I got used to it rather quickly.

If I had to choose, I'd certainly go for Ardesch.
I liked his BWV 582. He's opting for the 'romantic' construction: soft and mild at the start, and then building to a climax, with the fugue entirely pleno.
Personally, I begin to value the pleno from the beginning more and more, but I still fully enjoy this 'romantic' interpretation. For instance: I've always liked Rogg (EMI) and Power Biggs (CBS/Sony) in this masterpiece. Apparently Ardesch is sharing their vision.

premont

Quote from: Marc on November 02, 2009, 03:55:10 AM
Speaking about ears: I entered the night with Bach & Piet Kee. Had not listened to this one for months.
http://www.jsbach.org/keepietkeeplaysbachvol1.html

Well, I have to say that it was somehow tiring to listen to it. Like the 'old' Rübsam (Naxos) he's slowing down from time to time, but I do not know what he wants to achieve with that. Rübsam gives the impression that he wants the time to be stopped .... and who doesn't, when one listens to Bach? With Kee, this effect isn't achieved, IMHO. In the end, especially in the chorales, I would call his way of playing rather shredded.

Personally, I begin to value the pleno (BWV 582) from the beginning more and more, but I still fully enjoy this 'romantic' interpretation. For instance: I've always liked Rogg (EMI) and Power Biggs (CBS/Sony) in this masterpiece.

Interesting considerations, and once more I think I share your views. Shall listen to Kee a bit more in the nearest future.
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