J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Coopmv]

I didn't know Foccroulle had undertaken an integral set. I have only one disc of it. And it does say Orgelwerke (XIV) on the booklet and back cover  .  I find his playing both colourful and thoughtful. IOW unflashy yet quite beautiful as sound.

Fagius is a very interesting musician, an extremely versatile organist with far-reaching interests. I haven't heard a lot of his Bach, but he seems intent on making statements out of the music. Some of the effects sound slightly contrived (the mordents and small pauses inserted in the opening phrase of S.565 for example). But if there's a cheap Brilliant box set, I don't see any reason not to explore futher...

If I find the time, I will pull his CD's out of that mammoth 155-CD BC Bach set to have a second listen ...

[DarkAngel]

Fagius is a very interesting musician, an extremely versatile organist with far-reaching interests. I haven't heard a lot of his Bach, but he seems intent on making statements out of the music. Some of the effects sound slightly contrived (the mordents and small pauses inserted in the opening phrase of S.565 for example). But if there's a cheap Brilliant box set, I don't see any reason not to explore futher...

Presto UK has great deal with sale on Fagius/Brilliant 17CD set........$47
If you bought them as BIS 2CD releases cost over $300 for set

[Coopmv]

Presto UK has great deal with sale on Fagius/Brilliant 17CD set........$47
If you bought them as BIS 2CD releases cost over $300 for set

That 155-CD Bach set includes the entire organ works by Hans Fagius.  Why not just buy that mega set?  I got that set about 2 or 3 years ago ...

[Que]

But what is wrong with Ton Koopman's organ playing?  I have the new set by him from Presto Classic sitting right next to me.  I also enjoy most works by Beethoven.

It is far from well-mannered, this Bach set not the least.

Yes, that's generally the case with Koopman as a keyboardist, although he is another story conducting vocal music. But when he takes his medicine on time, he can be fantastic: I am thinking, for example, in those superb Leipzig chorales –with sung chorales- performed on the organ of the Grote Kerk, Leeuwarden... Probably the human voice has a peace effect over him. 

I must emphasize the superbness of the performance of the Leipzig Chorlas, but I personally like Ton Koopman much better as a organist than as a conductor!

His Teldec Bach set proved to be very satisfactory to me. I did fear moments of too much wild, hard driven inbalanced and overly embellished playing. But that did not materialize...at all. I'm allmost through the whole set and he generally does not go over the top for my taste: very nicely articulated, and sensibly varied playing. Only in the disc with Toccata's, Preludes and Fugues the is a bit too much twiddling going on. But other than than I think it's a superb set in a suitably free, "improvisatory", well informed HIP style on just the right instruments.

Koopman's style is admittedly of a personalised nature, but....IMO that is how it should be in organ music from the Baroque - as oppose to the bland, "objectivied" and abstracted approach that was, and very much still is around. Bach didn't play that way, nor did any selfrespecting organist of his time - they all made the music their own. Just pick the organist that suits your taste!

Q

[Marc]

If one's a beginner in Bach's organ music, with a tendency to get addicted , one should begin with the not-so-very-recommandable organists / single discs / integrals. After hearing them, one is probably thinking: wow, great music, but somehow something is missing!
Then go for the better ones .... and you'll be addicted for a lifetime.



[And now for something (only slightly) different:]

No surprise to some of you: my taste (and therefore advice) will be rather similar to Premont's. But when Ton Koopman is concerned: I totally understand the positive feelings towards him that were mentioned by Que!
But really: Fagius at Brilliant is very very cheap, and his set is a great intro to Bach's impressive organ oeuvre.
Sadly, my personal faves, if integrals are concerned, are all OOP and/or unfunished.
I would like to put a feather in George Ritchie's cap, though. His integral (label: Raven) is far from complete, but I very much enjoyed it. If one's having some difficulties with listening to old historic instruments, his 11cd-set is definitely worth investing.

BTW: if you're not entirely certain whether you're going to like this music, just begin with a single disc! There are so many good organists who didn't go for an integral!

[Marc]

[About Ton Koopman as keyboard player]
[....] when he takes his medicine on time, he can be fantastic [....]

   

(Hence your own forum nickname? )

[Antoine Marchand]

   

(Hence your own forum nickname? )

Nickname? It's my real name, Marc! 

One of my favorite movie scenes on pills and medicines:

 

http://www.youtube.com/v/FbyP8gbb1hw

[DarkAngel]

Presto UK has great deal with sale on Fagius/Brilliant 17CD set........$47
If you bought them as BIS 2CD releases cost over $300 for set

Thanks to Premont & company for eagerlly assisting me in depleting my music budget......
These two itens have been ordered, combined purchase under $65 

Coop
I did not get the big megabox Bach set by Brilliant because outside of the organ works did not see anything I had to have in that set........I think

[DarkAngel]

I must emphasize the superbness of the performance of the Leipzig Chorlas, but I personally like Ton Koopman much better as a organist than as a conductor!

Have you been able to compare these Koopman organ works to the performances in the cheap Brilliant boxset?
Are they are different.........

[Marc]

Have you been able to compare these Koopman organ works to the performances in the cheap Brilliant boxset?
Are they are different.........

Koopman began an integral for the Swiss Novalis label, but didn't finish it. The set was reissued by Brilliant: that's the 6cd-box.

For Teldec he began another integral, for which he started all over again.
In general, his style of playing didn't change that much. The 6cd-box is a bargain and IMHO good value for money. Koopman is quite unique, which means that (if financially possible) there's still more than enough room for any other interpreter in your cd collection.

For instance: Hans Vollenweider, who's in my cd-layer right now. He's the father of Andreas Vollenweider:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Vollenweider

I just started listening to a library copy of this one (OOP):
http://www.amazon.com/Hans-Vollenweider-Bach-Preludes-Fugues/dp/B0012UFZX4
First personal impressions: very capable organist, though his interpretation is a bit shallow (cautious), with not always convincing registration choices.

[Que]

Have you been able to compare these Koopman organ works to the performances in the cheap Brilliant boxset?
Are they are different.........

Yes, they are IMO. His style is, of course, basically the same. But - sorry for the platitude - it has matured. I feel less unabashed ethusiasm and thrust, his playing is now emotionally darker and introspective - especially in the chorales, and more refined I think. Of course, all relatively speaking!

Q

[Marc]

Yes, they are IMO. His style is, of course, basically the same. But - sorry for the platitude - it has matured. I feel less unabashed ethusiasm and thrust, his playing is now emotionally darker and introspective - especially in the chorales, and more refined I think. Of course, all relatively speaking!

If the Dark Angel can stand the adornments, he might enjoy Koopman, I'm sure.
I agree with you about the chorales: these bring out the best in Koopman .... also in the Novalis recordings. All personally speaking!

BTW, here's a non-chorale Koopman sampler from DG:
http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Toccata-Passacaglia-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B0000057FG

[Marc]

I just started listening to a library copy of this one (OOP):
http://www.amazon.com/Hans-Vollenweider-Bach-Preludes-Fugues/dp/B0012UFZX4
First personal impressions: very capable organist, though his interpretation is a bit shallow (cautious), with not always convincing registration choices.

Just finished listening to the entire disc, and I would like to add this (even though the item is OOP):
Vollenweider tends to begin the preludes rather cautious, builing up to a climax and in some fugues he's very well capable to keep the tension. The recital begins with BWV 548, a great & impressive work which is given only a moderate performance. The second work is BWV 536, and Vollenweider misses the joy of this one.
But after that he's getting better results with resp. BWV 534, 535, 532 and 543, especially in the fugues.

[Opus106]

This thread isn't helping.

Let's say that I want to get the "complete" works -- I have it narrowed down to two: Koopman on Warner and Alain (II) from the same conglomerate. And now you guys throw Fagius into the mix!

Koopman:

       Pros (as I see and hear them, of course):

           
• He's a HIPpy and a Bach scholar

                Well, I did find his playing a bit strange (on the Novalis/Brilliant recordings), in that it sounded starkly different from "conventional" performances of famous pieces, the ones I was used to (think of the opening of The Addams Family, for instance ). I suppose this quality of his is what you refer to as overly embellished playing, Que?

Koopman's style is admittedly of a personalised nature, but....IMO that is how it should be in organ music from the Baroque

It's fairly common knowledge that the history of the performance tradition in the Baroque era is not my field of speciality 0:), but I had a very similar thought when I first listened to Koopman. I imagine that Bach was a 'kook' and played in similar fashion during his time as church organist , rather than simply creating music in a stately manner.
           

• His set is "more complete" than Alain's.

                 And extra disc, that's all. But Koopman perhaps finishes up the majority of the pieces quickly?           
           

• The organs he uses make a lot of noise! <Insert head-banger-with-a-wig emoticon here>

                      But the pedal-pushing noise sometimes proves to be a distraction in the Brilliant set. How is it in the new one? I don't know about Alain.
           
      Cons (the lack of the following attributes/features are essentially some of the pros of the Alain set):     
            

• Um... he has a weird playing style.

                  Perhaps I should try out another playing style, considering I already own the Brilliant set.
           

• It's slightly costlier

As for Alain, she's not HIP, but the instruments she used in her cycle are "lighter" and sweeter sounding. But would I always want to listen to a sweet-sounding organ? (As much as I'm a fan of Bach's music, I would probably not buy another cycle for a long time.)         

Decisions. Decisions.             

[prémont]

Yes, that's generally the case with Koopman as a keyboardist, although he is another story conducting vocal music. ... Probably the human voice has a peace effect over him. 

I must emphasize the superbness of the performance of the Leipzig Chorlas, but I personally like Ton Koopman much better as a organist than as a conductor!

Rather interesting diversity of opinions.

But what shall I think??

[Marc]

This thread isn't helping.

Let's say that I want to get the "complete" works -- I have it narrowed down to two: Koopman on Warner and Alain (II) from the same conglomerate. And now you guys throw Fagius into the mix!

Koopman:

       Pros (as I see and hear them, of course):

           
• He's a HIPpy and a Bach scholar

                Well, I did find his playing a bit strange (on the Novalis/Brilliant recordings), in that it sounded starkly ldifferent from "conventional" performances of famous pieces, the ones I was used to (think of the opening of The Addams Family, for instance ). I suppose this quality of his is what you refer to as overly embellished playing, Que?
It's fairly common knowledge that the history of the performance tradition in the Baroque era is not my field of speciality 0:), but I had a very similar thought when I first listened to Koopman. I imagine that Bach was a 'kook' and played in similar fashion during his time as church organist , rather than simply creating music in a stately manner.
           

• His set is "more complete" than Alain's.

                 And extra disc, that's all. But Koopman perhaps finishes up the majority of the pieces quickly?           
           

• The organs he uses make a lot of noise! <Insert head-banger-with-a-wig emoticon here>

                      But the pedal-pushing noise sometimes proves to be a distraction in the Brilliant set. How is it in the new one? I don't know about Alain.
           
      Cons (the lack of the following attributes/features are essentially some of the pros of the Alain set):     
            

• Um... he has a weird playing style.

                  Perhaps I should try out another playing style, considering I already own the Brilliant set.
           

• It's slightly costlier

As for Alain, she's not HIP, but the instruments she used in her cycle are "lighter" and sweeter sounding. But would I always want to listen to a sweet-sounding organ? (As much as I'm a fan of Bach's music, I would probably not buy another cycle for a long time.)         

Decisions. Decisions.           

Poor Navneeth.
Dunno if Alain is really not HIP.
But: let's skip HIP.
The great thing about Koopman is: you can buy him any time, because there's no one like him, and you might like his eccentricity.
The less great thing: if you want, for instance, one solid integral, I wouldn't go for Koopman, because there's no one like him, and you might dislike his eccentricity.

If a (more or less) modern solid integral is required, I'd go for Alain 2, Fagius or Ritchie. But that's mainly because Ewald Kooiman (Coronata) and Bram Beekman (Lindenberg) are OOP.

So, you see, I made it all much easier for you!

[Opus106]

Poor Navneeth.
Dunno if Alain is really not HIP.
But: let's skip HIP.
The great thing about Koopman is: you can buy him any time, because there's no one like him, and you might like his eccentricity.
The less great thing: if you want, for instance, one solid integral, I wouldn't go for Koopman, because there's no one like him, and you might dislike his eccentricity.

If a (more or less) modern solid integral is required, I'd go for Alain 2, Fagius or Ritchie. But that's mainly because Ewald Kooiman (Coronata) and Bram Beekman (Lindenberg) are OOP.

So, you see, I made it all much easier for you!

Hm... thanks.

The balance is slightly tipped towards Mme. Alain.

[Marc]

Hm... thanks.

The balance is slightly tipped towards Mme. Alain.

Oh, I forgot: no Neumeister chorales with Alain and Ritchie.
So: go for Fagius!

[Opus106]

Oh, I forgot: no Neumeister chorales with Alain and Ritchie.
So: go for Fagius!

That settles it, then.

[Que]

Poor Navneeth.
Dunno if Alain is really not HIP.
But: let's skip HIP.
The great thing about Koopman is: you can buy him any time, because there's no one like him, and you might like his eccentricity.
The less great thing: if you want, for instance, one solid integral, I wouldn't go for Koopman, because there's no one like him, and you might dislike his eccentricity.

If a (more or less) modern solid integral is required, I'd go for Alain 2, Fagius or Ritchie. But that's mainly because Ewald Kooiman (Coronata) and Bram Beekman (Lindenberg) are OOP.

So, you see, I made it all much easier for you!

Skip HIP?!   And what about Weinberger's impeccably HIP and rock-solid cycle? (non-eccentric HIP, if you will) On the right historical organs and damn cheap too! Liked by a fair number here - search for previous discussions!


                         ~ jpc ~


I also like the multi-interpreter cycle on Hänssler's Bach Edition: all HIP playing, some very interesting organists and a very good choice of organs that are superbly recorded. But that is no box set so more expensive - check BRO!

Marie-Claire Alain? Definitely not my taste, not a certified HIPpie
(She does not only look like a French grandmother, she also plays like one... My apologies to her fans... 0:))

Q