J.S. Bach on the Organ

Started by premont, April 29, 2007, 02:16:33 PM

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Coopmv

Quote from: premont on January 12, 2010, 02:03:23 PM
I agree, that the sound is uneven, but IMO never unlistenable - at least not on my gear.
But the set is interesting for other and more important reasons: The many historical organs and the interpretation. But I understand, that these circumstances do not count??

Premont, I share your view on the Jacob's set.  I bought the set almost 2 years ago.  While I do not consider the set to be among the top Bach Complete Organ Works set, it is an interesting set from a historical perspective ...

premont

#661
Quote from: jlaurson on January 12, 2010, 02:17:13 PM
But the choice of instruments? There are more historical organ sets than modern organ sets, by now.

The ratio between existing historical organ sets and modern organ sets is approximately 15 / 15. And besides it is not just a question of historical organs or not, but also a question of which historical organs. Jacob played on a number of the commonly used organs but even on some very little used instruments, the Schnitger / Steinkirchen being a good example.
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premont

Quote from: Scarpia on January 12, 2010, 02:15:53 PM
Not if I can't bear to listen to the recording.   :'(

Do not listen to the recording, listen to the music. 8)
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Scarpia

Quote from: jlaurson on January 13, 2010, 05:04:56 AM
Well, but by that logic we should have everything that includes someone doing anything differently than anyone else. Which is just about the argument to have all sets rather than discriminate. But if discriminate we must (and we must, to some degree or another), the question is: Is that which Jacob offers so different and so important that he ought to be chosen over any? all? some? other organists and their collections---even if the sound is not satisfactory, making it more difficult to listen to the music?

My criteria was simple.  When I listened to the Jacob set, I felt I hated Bach.  My goal is not to sit around investigating subtle differences between baroque organs, it is to enjoy music.  The Jacob set was, for me, not compatible with that goal.

Scarpia

Quote from: jlaurson on January 13, 2010, 05:18:16 AM
Why do I feel you are arguing with me? You are arguing with Premont.  :P ;)

I do not think that quoting a post indicates disagreement, rather than agreement.  It depends on context.

Marc

Quote from: Scarpia on January 13, 2010, 05:16:21 AM
When I listened to the Jacob set, I felt I hated Bach. 
:o
After such an experience, there are only two options: either one stops, either one hates. I would have gone for the first option, too. :)

Quote from: Scarpia
My goal is not to sit around investigating subtle differences between baroque organs, it is to enjoy music. The Jacob set was, for me, not compatible with that goal.
Fair enough. Maybe with the Weinberger set you will be able to strike the golden mean.
Personally, I'm quite happy with my 3cd Jacobs sampler, though he's not my favourite Bach organist.

Scarpia

Quote from: Marc on January 13, 2010, 06:33:42 AM
Fair enough. Maybe with the Weinberger set you will be able to strike the golden mean.

Parts of the Jacob set were ok, but parts were very not-ok, very very not-ok, in my own opinion.  The set ranged from awful to acceptable, so I did not feel the need to keep it. 

Of the sets I have, none are perfect.  My gripe with Weinberger is that some organs are recorded with too much reverberation, while others are more more closely recorded and spectacular, in my opinion.  I like his lively articulation which makes counterpoint clear.   The other sets, Koopman/Teldec, Allain, Walcha, all have their high points and low points.  There are also a number of outstanding individual discs, such as Richter's collections of DG and Decca, and Johannson's Trio Sonatas (Hanssler).

Bulldog

Quote from: premont on January 12, 2010, 02:03:23 PM
I agree, that the sound is uneven, but IMO never unlistenable - at least not on my gear.
But the set is interesting for other and more important reasons: The many historical organs and the interpretation. But I understand, that these circumstances do not count??

I've had the Jacobs set for many years and don't find the sound quality a problem.  As for the performances, it's quite a mix; some of them are among the worst I have ever heard, some among the best.  I'm happy to have the set.

Bulldog

Quote from: Scarpia on January 13, 2010, 08:19:11 AM
There are also a number of outstanding individual discs, such as Richter's collections of DG and Decca, and Johannson's Trio Sonatas (Hanssler).

I agree about Richter, but not Johannson.  I find his Trio Sonatas disc rather heavy and drab, the same opinion I hold for his other Bach discs for Haenssler.  For the Trio Sonatas, Rogg or Walcha are far superior.

Scarpia

Quote from: Bulldog on January 13, 2010, 09:31:03 AM
I agree about Richter, but not Johannson.  I find his Trio Sonatas disc rather heavy and drab, the same opinion I hold for his other Bach discs for Haenssler.  For the Trio Sonatas, Rogg or Walcha are far superior.

Well, I find your reaction to Johannson to be very surprising, but we all have our own impressions.  I do like Walcha's but have not heard Rogg.  Are you referring to the EMI or Harmonia Mundi recordings by Rogg?

premont

QuoteWell, but by that logic we should have everything that includes someone doing anything differently than anyone else. Which is just about the argument to have all sets rather than discriminate. But if discriminate we must (and we must, to some degree or another), the question is: Is that which Jacob offers so different and so important that he ought to be chosen over any? all? some? other organists and their collections---even if the sound is not satisfactory, making it more difficult to listen to the music?

I do not claim, that Jacob´s set is the only one to have. But for someone owning five or six other sets (=Scarpia), Jacobs set may be interesting and often rewarding supplementary listening.


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Marc

Quote from: Scarpia on January 13, 2010, 01:41:36 PM
Well, I find your reaction to Johannson to be very surprising, but we all have our own impressions.  I do like Walcha's but have not heard Rogg.  Are you referring to the EMI or Harmonia Mundi recordings by Rogg?
I think Don is referring to the Harmonia Mundi recordings.
Dunno 'bout them myself. Only have 3 discs with Rogg (1 HM, 2 EMI), but no Trio Sonatas.

I personally like Marie-Claire Alain's recording in the early nineties on the Schnitger-organ of the Der Aa-Kerk in Groningen, NL. But maybe that one is officially OOP (I know her nineties integral is). The organ is a great factor in this admiration, btw.

Here's a recent recording with Benjamin Alard that quickly convinced me in a positive way, though one might feel that the bass (pedal part) could have been a bit stronger. On the other hand: it gives the whole performance a more 'chamber music'-like impression.
The Aubertin-organ is a beauty, IMHO.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/J-S-Bach-Trio-Sonatas-Organ/dp/B002DMIJNS

premont

Quote from: Scarpia on January 13, 2010, 05:16:21 AM
My criteria was simple.  When I listened to the Jacob set, I felt I hated Bach. 

No performer can make me hate the composer, and when you - based upon your own reaction - warn against Jacobs set, you are perhaps generalizing too much.
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Antoine Marchand

Quote from: premont on January 13, 2010, 02:44:37 PM
I do not claim, that Jacob´s set is the only one to have.

God forbid!  :)

premont

Quote from: Marc on January 13, 2010, 02:49:07 PM
Here's a recent recording with Benjamin Alard that quickly convinced me in a positive way, though one might feel that the bass (pedal part) could have been a bit stronger. On the other hand: it gives the whole performance a more 'chamber music'-like impression.

This is exactly why I think 16F in the pedal should be banned in these works, at least in the slow movements, and many performers seem to think similarily. Based upon your ealier recommendation I have ordered the Allard CD from Amazon UK a week ago, but even if it was advertised that it was in stock, it is now for unexplained reasons in backorder.
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Bulldog

Quote from: Scarpia on January 13, 2010, 01:41:36 PM
Well, I find your reaction to Johannson to be very surprising, but we all have our own impressions.  I do like Walcha's but have not heard Rogg.  Are you referring to the EMI or Harmonia Mundi recordings by Rogg?

Harmonia Mundi.

premont

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Marc

Quote from: premont on January 13, 2010, 03:28:18 PM
Yes, certainly a completists nightmare. :o :o :D
Thank the Lord I'm not a completist!

Oh, got 2 mails from Amazon yesterday and today: both Hurford and Vad are on their way! 2 Bach integrals, 35 discs, thus far from complete. ;D

Love that biscuit, btw.

Marc

Quote from: premont on January 13, 2010, 03:27:12 PM
This is exactly why I think 16F in the pedal should be banned in these works, at least in the slow movements, and many performers seem to think similarily. Based upon your ealier recommendation I have ordered the Allard CD from Amazon UK a week ago, but even if it was advertised that it was in stock, it is now for unexplained reasons in backorder.
Should listen to it again, but I'm not sure if the not-so-loud bass is caused by the choice of registration. Could be a recording issue. Anyway: sometimes it seems that the balance is (too?) positive towards the manual parts.
But it didn't really distract me.

Scarpia

Quote from: Marc on January 13, 2010, 03:35:27 PM
Thank the Lord I'm not a completist!

Oh, got 2 mails from Amazon yesterday and today: both Hurford and Vad are on their way! 2 Bach integrals, 35 discs, thus far from complete. ;D

Love that biscuit, btw.

Yikes, Hurford is available again.  When I was looking for it about 6 months ago nobody seemed to have it.  I was fed up with all of those "authentic" organs and wanted a cycle on some modern organs that actually work properly.  But I think I have too many cycles by now to justify another.   :'(