J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Marc]

I tend to love all organs; organists are a different matter.

Or recording engineers.

Sure, the Duke University Chapel (Chapel Hill, NC) is a large building .... but is it really inevitable to make a decent Flentrop organ sound like it's been recorded in an enormous swimming pool?



Of course it doesn't make me hate neither composer nor performer (the latter in this case: Joan Lippincott) .... but unfortunately the sound of an outta space cistern makes any satisfactionary listening quite impossible, IMO.

[Que]

A big, sturdy, well wrought hands-on interpretation by Andrea Marcon. Much to admire, but also at times too slow and ponderous, especially for works by the young Bach. Wonderful historical organ of the Klosterkirche Muri, Aargau, Switzerland, built by Thomas Schott 1619-1630.



Q

[prémont]

A big, sturdy, well wrought hands-on interpretation by Andrea Marcon. Much to admire, but also at times too slow and ponderous, especially for works by the young Bach. Wonderful historical organ of the Klosterkirche Muri, Aargau, Switzerland, built by Thomas Schott 1619-1630.

Having owned this 2CD set for nine years but never having listened to it - because I did not really enjoy Marcon´s two other CDs i nthe Haenssler series - I decided to give it a listen to day. But I can not honestly say, that Marcon is my cup of tea. His playing is directed towards effect and external brilliance, and when the music does not lend itself easily to such treatement, and sometimes also when it does, he does not seem to know what to do with the music, and some disagreable pedantic traits appears in his playing, making listening a mixed experience, even if his playing from a formal poimt of view is scholary. You have to go far to find a similar lightweight Canzona or a similar leaden Allabreve. I do not think, he captures the spirit of this music, and I also very much miss some passion and urgency in his playing.

[Que]

Having owned this 2CD set for nine years but never having listened to it - because I did not really enjoy Marcon´s two other CDs in the Haenssler series - I decided to give it a listen to day. But I can not honestly say, that Marcon is my cup of tea. His playing is directed towards effect and external brilliance, and when the music does not lend itself easily to such treatement, and sometimes also when it does, he does not seem to know what to do with the music, and some disagreable pedantic traits appears in his playing, making listening a mixed experience, even if his playing from a formal poimt of view is scholary. You have to go far to find a similar lightweight Canzona or a similar leaden Allabreve. I do not think, he captures the spirit of this music, and I also very much miss some passion and urgency in his playing.

Very much agree with your points - well put!

In fact, after the run-through this morning I decided to put it on the "rejection" pile. 

To quote our Don (never got used to "Bulldog" - please consider changing it back.  ):
Marcon's performances will not be to everyone's tastes. He is with little exception forceful, serious, and slow. Nuances are at a minimum.Many collectors would consider his readings of the sledgehammer variety.The man never lets up; he grabs and pounds his way either into your heart or he could give you a major headache. If there is any opportunity to deliver power and force, Marcon usually takes advantage. Concerning the slow tempos he uses, I logically know that he's slow. However, the power of the performances easily erases any feeling of slowness. This is Bach with a bold and heavy hand, and I doubt that listeners will go away with neutral opinions of the interpretations. They are of the love it or hate it variety. Personally, I tend to love Marcon's readings, although listening in somewhat small chunks might be the best way to approach the set. Full review HERE.

Count me in for the headache category..

Q

[Bulldog]

Very much agree with your points - well put!

In fact, after the run-through this morning I decided to put it on the "rejection" pile. 

To quote our Don (never got used to "Bulldog" - please consider changing it back.  ):
Marcon's performances will not be to everyone's tastes. He is with little exception forceful, serious, and slow. Nuances are at a minimum.Many collectors would consider his readings of the sledgehammer variety.The man never lets up; he grabs and pounds his way either into your heart or he could give you a major headache. If there is any opportunity to deliver power and force, Marcon usually takes advantage. Concerning the slow tempos he uses, I logically know that he's slow. However, the power of the performances easily erases any feeling of slowness. This is Bach with a bold and heavy hand, and I doubt that listeners will go away with neutral opinions of the interpretations. They are of the love it or hate it variety. Personally, I tend to love Marcon's readings, although listening in somewhat small chunks might be the best way to approach the set. Full review HERE.

Count me in for the headache category..

Q

Understood.  I remember that review and love the set, finding only the Canzona not to my liking.

[Marc]

Que (& others): thankx for 'bumping' my favourite thread.
Marcon's 2cd is now ordered at the old-fashioned library.

I myself have been listening quite a lot to Lionel Rogg's Die Kunst der Fuge this week, and with great pleasure!
I also decided to give the spatial disc of Joan Lippincott another chance. I think her playing is fine, but due to the acoustics it's almost impossible for me to say anything about her phrasing, articulation and so on. I really don't mind some reverberation, but in this recording it keeps on audible during the entire program. The organ sound is drowning in it. A missed opportunity, IMO.

I think that the Hänssler collection does deliver some gems, from what I've heard so far (which isn't all that much, to be honest). The Leipzig Chorales by Bine Katrine Bryndorf and some Weimar stuff by Wolfgang Zerer were very much to my likings. The Neumeister Chorales by Johannsen were OK (transparent, I like that), though not very exciting.

[prémont]

Que (& others): thankx for 'bumping' my favourite thread.
Marcon's 2cd is now ordered at the old-fashioned library.

Why? I bet you will not like it.

I myself have been listening quite a lot to Lionel Rogg's Die Kunst der Fuge this week, and with great pleasure!

So have I, inspired by you (even the day I had listened to three other AoF´s beforehand)- and with equal pleasure I suppose. This is a musically very satisfying interpretation. The only thing about it I do not like is the recording of the organ. So much more as I have listened to several recitals played on this organ in the real world, and I can not recognize the sound on the recording. In the church the stops blend much better, still leaving a very transparent (polyphonic) sound-picture. The reeds are not so prominent and the sound of the principals is much more beautiful.

[Bulldog]

Why? I bet you will not like it.

I'll be interested in Marc's opinion of the Marcon set, having no idea what he might think of it.

[Marc]

Que (& others): thankx for 'bumping' my favourite thread.
Marcon's 2cd is now ordered at the old-fashioned library.

Why? I bet you will not like it.

Dear Premont, you know me: every time you're negative about a recording, I'm eager to get it!

Seriously now: I like the program of the disc, and I'm still interested in a wide variety of different musicians playing Bach's organ. But yes, you might be right with your premature conclusion (casu quo 'bet' ), because in many previous occasions you and I shared more or less the same taste. That's why I didn't order it at a shop for 25 euro or more (or maybe less), but for a couple of euros at the library.
If the recording makes me .... I won't tape nor buy it. If the recording makes me , I might tape it and relisten again (and again) to 'finally' draw my conclusions. If the recording makes me , I will certainly tape it and who knows, maybe even buy it when the time is right.

Mind you: I very rarely throw discs into the refuse-bin. In some cases it takes time to appreciate a certain recording, you know. People grow older, and sometimes do experience changes in their taste.

[Bulldog]

Mind you: I very rarely throw discs into the refuse-bin. In some cases it takes time to appreciate a certain recording, you know. People grow older, and sometimes do experience changes in their taste.

I was thinking the same thing last night concerning a Bach recording of Art of Fugue performed by Sebastien Guillot on Naxos.  I bought it a couple of years ago and didn't care for it much after a few listenings.  Well, I gave it another spin last night and enjoyed it a lot.  Yes, keep those recordings!

[Que]

I think that the Hänssler collection does deliver some gems, from what I've heard so far (which isn't all that much, to be honest). The Leipzig Chorales by Bine Katrine Bryndorf and some Weimar stuff by Wolfgang Zerer were very much to my likings. The Neumeister Chorales by Johannsen were OK (transparent, I like that), though not very exciting.

Wolfgang Zerer - seconded.  I also quite like Johannsen's ClavierÜbung BTW. And don't forget Martin Lücker: strong but sensitive and intelligent, articulated playing, but maybe a touch too scholary - Bach was an organ virtuoso and from my perspective he like to "play", so there should be some FUN in there as well! The recording by Lücker that I'm listening now:



Martin Lücker on the Rieger Organ (1990) of the Katherinenkirche, Frankfurt am Main, Germany.

Seems Don and I agree on this one  , see his review here.
The new organ sounds pretty good BTW, quite natural and great acoustic though still too "glitzy" & bright, and somewhat missing an individual character/ "face". It was built for both Baroque & Romantic music - I doubt if one can have it both ways like that.

I'm currently reevaluating this series, so to be continued!

Q

[Marc]

I was thinking the same thing last night concerning a Bach recording of Art of Fugue performed by Sebastien Guillot on Naxos.  I bought it a couple of years ago and didn't care for it much after a few listenings.  Well, I gave it another spin last night and enjoyed it a lot.  Yes, keep those recordings!

Same here.
Good example, btw. I needed a couple more listening sessions with that one, too.
And I'm also able now to value Wolfgang Rübsam's playing in his second Bach integral (also Naxos). OK, this cycle will never be my favourite, but when I bought my first copy (must be around 20 years ago) I really disgusted it.

Wolfgang Zerer - seconded.  I also quite like Johannsen's ClavierÜbung BTW. And don't forget Martin Lücker: strong but sensitive and intelligent, articulated playing, but maybe a touch too scholary - Bach was an organ virtuoso and from my perspective he like to "play", so there should be some FUN in there as well! The recording by Lücker that I'm listening now:

Martin Lücker on the Rieger Organ (1990) of the Katherinenkirche, Frankfurt am Main, Germany.

Seems Don and I agree on this one  , see his review here.
The new organ sounds pretty good BTW, quite natural and great acoustic though still too "glitzy" & bright, and somewhat missing an individual character/ "face". It was built for both Baroque & Romantic music - I doubt if one can have it both ways like that.

I'm currently reevaluating this series, so to be continued!

Yep, most of this series is on my wishlist, too. But I will take it slowly, so that I can read your valuable opinions about them first!

[Que]

Yep, most of this series is on my wishlist, too. But I will take it slowly, so that I can read your valuable opinions about them first!

I think modesty on my part is called for: my experience and knowledge with recordings of Bach organ's music does not match yours by a long shot!

Q

[Marc]

I think modesty on my part is called for: my experience and knowledge with recordings of Bach organ's music does not match yours by a long shot!

Very kind words, mister Q.





But honestly: it's been since about a year now that I 'seriously' started to listen to organ music, so .... please let's be cautious about assumed knowledge. But of course, listening experience is growing, and in many cases this stimulates one's knowledge, too. Also visiting some organ demonstrations in some Groningen churches last summer has certainly helped, not to mention helpful notes by members like Premont and Bulldog (and all the others I forgot).

The only thing I can 'state' for sure is: the organ, and especially Bach's oeuvre for this instrument (and other baroque stuff), is giving me tremendous pleasure & satisfaction!
And it doesn't bore me at all, listening to works like BWV 562 eight days a week!

[Coopmv]

I think modesty on my part is called for: my experience and knowledge with recordings of Bach organ's music does not match yours by a long shot!

Q

Modesty is a virtue compared with some who claims to know it all.  I only have 7 versions of Complete Bach Organ Works, including the very rare cycle by Lionel Rogg on EMI Electrola 18 LP-set, which has NEVER been released on CD.  I also have many CD singles on various Bach organ works by various artists and most of the cycles by Preston and Marie-Claire Alain.  The only other cycle I hope to get is the last cylce recorded by Alain, which appears to be OOP for the moment.

[Clever Hans]

I'm looking for a set of Bach's organ works that are historically informed in terms of registration, etc (I am mostly ignorant about this subject, however).
Which are the best?

I have Fagius, Rogg, and Walcha of course. All of them I enjoy, but my understanding is that only the first of these is really HIP. I've seen Fagius cited as a solid standard, for which there are few complaints but not necessarily the loudest accolades.

I've read through most of this thread, but am still unsure as to which represent the best of the (most) HIP recordings (and what constitutes HIP in organ playing in the first place, beyond recreating baroque registration and using restored organs).

Thanks!

[Coopmv]

I'm looking for a set of Bach's organ works that are historically informed in terms of registration, etc (I am mostly ignorant about this subject, however).
Which are the best?

I have Fagius, Rogg, and Walcha of course. All of them I enjoy, but my understanding is that only the first of these is really HIP. I've seen Fagius cited as a solid standard, for which there are few complaints but not necessarily the loudest accolades.

I've read through most of this thread, but am still unsure as to which represent the best of the (most) HIP recordings (and what constitutes HIP in organ playing in the first place, beyond recreating baroque registration and using restored organs).

Thanks!

I suppose you only have a few CD recordings by Rogg and not the Complete Bach Organ Works, which is only available on LP to the best of my knowledge.  I have that set on EMI Electrola.  I also have the set by Hans Fagius via the mammoth 155 CD-set on BC ...

[Que]

I'm looking for a set of Bach's organ works that are historically informed in terms of registration, etc (I am mostly ignorant about this subject, however).
Which are the best?

I have Fagius, Rogg, and Walcha of course. All of them I enjoy, but my understanding is that only the first of these is really HIP. I've seen Fagius cited as a solid standard, for which there are few complaints but not necessarily the loudest accolades.

I've read through most of this thread, but am still unsure as to which represent the best of the (most) HIP recordings (and what constitutes HIP in organ playing in the first place, beyond recreating baroque registration and using restored organs).

Thanks!

For your convenience I'm quoting the very 1st post of this thread wwith valuable recommendations by Premont on this:

Que, here is my list of some HIP recordings, which are played in HIP style on properly restored Northern or German baroque organs. and which do not constitute parts of complete cycles. The number of candidates is small, - almost all uncompromising HIP recordings are parts of integral recordings.

Collections of chiefly choral-free works:

Ton Koopman 6 CD set for Novalis (already recommended by Que).

Rainer Oster 1 CD for Arte Nova on  the Schnitger organ of Sc.Jacobi, Hamburg, (Arte Nova 74321 63644 2).

Stefan Johannes Bleicher  2 CDs for EBS on the Gabler organ in Weigarten and the Holzhey organ in Weissenau respectively.
On the same Holzhey organ he also recorded a Bach-CD for Arte Nova.

Franz Raml  1 CD for Oehms on the Silbermann organ in the Church of the Court, Dresden.

Jean-Charles Ablitzer 2 CDs for Harmonic Records, France on the Treutmann organ, Goslar-Grauhof.

Hubert Meister 1 CD for Motette on the Silbermann organs in Grosshartmannsdorf and Forchheim (contains the triosonates).

Martin Sander 1 CD for Fermate records on the Wagner organ in Trondheim

Matthias Eisenberg and Felix Friedrich 1 CD each (sold as double midprice set) for Capriccio on the Trost organ in Altenburg.

Robert Clark 2 CDs for Calcante on the Hildebrand organ in Naumburg.

Choralbound works:

Orgelbüchlein:
Rene Saorgin on French Harmonia Mundi.

Clavierübung III:
Edgar Krapp for Berlin Classics on the Wagner organs in Brandenburg and Treuenbrietzen.
or
Felix Friedrich for Motette on the Trost organ in Altenburg.


The CDs of some of the uncompromising HIP Integrals are sold separately. This is true of the Haenssler cycle, the Weinberger cycle (CPO) and the Kooiman cycle (Coronata).

I'd like to add Ton Koopman's cycle on Warner/Teldec - I've enjoyed that greatly, see my comments HERE . Caveat emptor: Premont does not approve of that Koopman cycle!  Go back and forth from that post to read more about the cycles Fagius & Koopman.

Q

[jlaurson]

I suppose you only have a few CD recordings by Rogg and not the Complete Bach Organ Works, which is only available on LP to the best of my knowledge.  I have that set on EMI Electrola.  I also have the set by Hans Fagius via the mammoth 155 CD-set on BC ...

Complete (not quite) Bach Organ works
Lionel Rogg
(2nd cycle)
Perfectly available
as used copies in France

[Marc]

I'm looking for a set of Bach's organ works that are historically informed in terms of registration, etc (I am mostly ignorant about this subject, however).
Which are the best?

I have Fagius, Rogg, and Walcha of course. All of them I enjoy, but my understanding is that only the first of these is really HIP. I've seen Fagius cited as a solid standard, for which there are few complaints but not necessarily the loudest accolades.

I've read through most of this thread, but am still unsure as to which represent the best of the (most) HIP recordings (and what constitutes HIP in organ playing in the first place, beyond recreating baroque registration and using restored organs).

Thanks!

I'll be very cautious with my modest advice, because I never really went that deep into solid HIP-constitutions and so-called 'correct' registrations.
In many cases these are important issues in HIP-playing, AFAIK: avoiding too much legato, avoiding too many registration changes during one piece, and avoiding too many tempo changes during one piece (agogics).
Important also: playing with vivid phrasing and articulation.

If I'm not mistaken, our honoured member Premont owns about 127 Bach integrals, and he's a great admirer of HIP, so he might be your most important advisor, as Que has suggested just before me.

If Fagius is entirely 'HIP' is not really for me to decide. His integral was reissued by a Dutch company (Brilliant Classics), as part of the 2000 Bach Collection, and HIP-influenced Dutch reviewers were not so enthousiastic about this set. I recall that the Dutch music magazine Luister called Fagius 'autodidact' and 'accused' him of using both wrong registrations (too many mixture stops) and organs (too many neo-baroque instruments).
(But I'm afraid that there was also a certain amount of chauvinism involved.)

It is true, though (IMHO), that there are some very worthwhile HIP-influenced organ discs of Dutch organists, like Gustav Leonhardt, Ewald Kooiman, Bram Beekman, Leo van Doeselaar, Wim van Beek, Ton Koopman et cetera et cetera.

My favourites, Kooiman & Beekman, who both did a very interesting integral, are unfortunately OOP.
To some Ton Koopman is too jolly, funny, witty and uneven .... but maybe you'll like him. His set (Teldec/Warner), played on historic instruments, is available for a nice price.

Leonhardt is very good IMO. He never did an integral, but who cares? I think he's top notch, for what it's worth.
Here are two interesting Bach issues by him:
http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Organ-Works-Gustav-Leonhardt/dp/B0000029Y5
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Organ-Gustav-Leonhardt/dp/B00005NYAT

Leo van Doeselaar and Wim van Beek made many recordings for small Dutch organ labels, and they're very hard to get outside the Netherlands.

Bernard Foccroulle, a Belgian organist who plays historic instruments, is also HIP-influenced, and his integral is reissued at budget price (Ricercar).

Also very interesting is the CPO-integral of German organist Gerhard Weinberger. Again: a (very) wide variety of historic organs and also a broad selection of Bach's organ works, including many doubtful and spurious ones. Again, I'll be cautious, but if I compare his playing with f.i. Leonhardt or Foccroulle, I would say that Weinberger is more 'stiff'.

But there is much more, of course, for instance from the Hänssler label, as was discussed during the last two days. Problem is: everything I 'know' has already been mentioned in this large thread. I only tried to summarize a couple of things, combined with my own preferences. I discovered these preferences by just buying both single discs and integrals 'from scratch' .... but I understand that not everyone is willing and able to do such a thing out of the blue.

Good luck with your research!