J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Marc]

Oh, before I forget:
I already mentioned his name a couple of times, but IMO American George Ritchie (label: Raven) is a rather good choice, too. He doesn't play on historic instruments, but his style is certainly very HIP-influenced. His integral is very 'small', only 11 discs, neglecting a lot of 'doubles' (almost similar chorale pieces f.i.) and many dubious works.

[Clever Hans]

Thanks for all the advice so far.

Yes, the Rogg set I own is the Harmonia Mundi (not quite complete organ works). I like that one very much, but I suppose he is probably outdated in terms of performance practice. That's why I am looking for a new set.

I have heard some Ton Koopman samples from Teldec (not Novalis/Brilliant). I gather it depends on the piece, but yeah sometimes his ornamentation is a little too busy and random sounding for my taste, much like on his harpischord recordings.

Leonhardt, obviously I love. His playing is always probing and tasteful. I have heard only a little bit of his organ recordings. But I thought he wasn't too great with his feet?

The Foccroulle is intriguing. Basically, what I'm looking for is something akin to the Vogel Buxtehude but for Bach. Good scholarship, extremely well played but with no obvious shortcomings.

[Marc]

I do not have this cycle myself, but you might want to check the internet for The Bach Circle in Three Volumes, played by Harald Vogel: compositions of J. S. Bach and of his contemporaries, predecessors and successors on (neo-) baroque instruments. It has been issued by Loft Recordings. Of course this ain't a Bach integral, but still .... (dunno if it's still available, though).

[Clever Hans]

Some copies of the Vogel seem to be floating around.

Foccroulle's Bach and especially his Buxtehude seems to be well reviewed.

[Clever Hans]

I'm trying to track down the review I read that said Leonhardt wasn't the best organist with his feet. Perhaps this is completely untrue? I would be interested to know more opinions on Leonhardt as an organist.

[Marc]

Here's a summary of an interview in which Leonhardt states the harpsichord is my life; the organ is [...] a luxurious extra to me.

http://www.hetorgel.nl/e2000-05c.htm

I do know about Ton Koopman and his short legs, which forced him to play the pedals in the HIP-way (no heels).

[Clever Hans]

Thanks. Yeah, I also read that about koopman.

What about this review of the Weinberger?
http://classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12023

Does Distler--normally the piano guy--not know what he's talking about?

[Que]

Thanks. Yeah, I also read that about koopman.

What about this review of the Weinberger?
http://classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12023

Does Distler--normally the piano guy--not know what he's talking about?

No, with all respect of Distler, he probably does not. I can't remember having seen much organ reviews by him. Being familiar with a sizeable chunk of Weinberger's cycle THIS REVIEW seems much closer to reality IMO.

BTW, when you made the Buxtehude/Vogel comparison, my first thought was: that sounds like Weinberger. Vogel's Buxtehude is too scholarly to my taste, same goes to some extent for Weinberger. Great instruments BTW, I do not share the reservations in the linked review on that point.

Q

[Marc]

Thanks. Yeah, I also read that about koopman.

What about this review of the Weinberger?
http://classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12023

Does Distler--normally the piano guy--not know what he's talking about?

That's not for me to 'decide'.
However, I personally find Weinberger, compared to f.i. Fagius and Walcha, slightly uneven, too. This also goes for the recording sound (sometimes very closely miked, too close for my likings). I haven't heard all Volumes of this set, but from what I've heard so far I certainly wouldn't disagree in a strong way with this review.
Nevertheless I would be more friendly in the end with my 'marking'. Artistic quality: 8; sound quality: 7.

About Foccroulle: if you're interested, here are some 'highlights' from a Dutch review I read some months ago (by a certain A. van Kralingen).

Well polished, introvert and honest interpretations. Some lovely poetic playing in various chorales, and using 'terrace-dynamics' (sic) in the grand Preludes & Fugues. But Foccroulle plays without the 'drive' of MC Alain, the monumentality & emotion of Piet Kee and the baroque-influenced rhetorics of Ewald Kooiman.
Nice playing in the Trio Sonates: no rushing, with only a modest use of mixtures.
Lovely selection of historic organs; every disc has an appealing tracklist (combination of free & chorale works).

[Que]

The more coments I read about Kooiman, the more I'd like to hear him. I hope Aeolus would be interested in licensing one of his earlier cycles for reissue, now their own plans have been aborted by his unfortunate decease. Or maybe... Brilliant Classics?

Q

[Marc]

The more coments I read about Kooiman, the more I'd like to hear him. I hope Aeolus would be interested in licensing one of his earlier cycles for reissue, now their own plans have been aborted by his unfortunate decease. Or maybe... Brilliant Classics?

I've been so lucky in 2009 to get Kooiman's entire integral, thanks to good and helpful friends, Dutch eBay-related sites (Marktplaats) and libraries.

Here's at least one Dutch link (Premont did post it some time ago, too) that still has 7 volumes of Kooiman's Coronota integral available:
http://www.landgoedgerianna.nl/index.php?keyword=Kooiman&Search=Zoeken&Itemid=1&option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse

Also available: some copies of the OOP set with Bram Beekman.
Four 2-cd's and one sampler:
http://www.landgoedgerianna.nl/index.php?keyword=beekman&Search=Zoeken&Itemid=1&option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse

I do know that there is a possibility to order from abroad. Maybe a mail will help interested 'foreigners' out: info@landgoedgerianna.nl.

[Clever Hans]

Thanks again guys.

I appreciate the Foccroulle reviews, Marc.

I'm also interested in further negative criticisms on Fagius, just to be informed.

Whom do you enjoy for Buxtehude, Que?

Kooiman does sound interesting (and as mentioned OOP). Does anyone love him other than the Dutch? 
What are his strong points?

It seems Premont recommends Alain II (not restored organs) & III (baroque organs, right, so I would prefer), Weinberger, Walcha mono, and the Hanssler discs.

He also says,
"Weinberger is as to style among the "avant garde" HIPs, Alain is a more "middle of the road" HIP."
I am interested in an elaboration of this observation.

Overall, it appears that organ playing in bach is a very contentious issue.

[Marc]

Overall, it appears that organ playing in bach is a very contentious issue.

Sure it is, but doesn't that count for all kinds of art where taste and admiration is an important issue?
I'm sure this is nothing new to you, but plz release yourself from illusions that the absolute (HIP-) truth in Bach (organ) playing does exist, no matter how convincing a review might sound.

About Kooiman & a possible selection concerning the Dutch link:
his Volumes 4 & 5 are really interesting gems! The entire Orgel-Büchlein in a very convincing interpretation IMO (the first time I listened to it I 'suddenly' noticed that my eyes were slowly getting wet ), combined with youthful free works like BWV 533, 534, 535 & 551, the Pastorale BWV 590 and both Canzona & Allabreve BWV's 588 & 589. Played on a rather unknown historic organ, built in 1756 by the Dutch organ builder Matthijs van Deventer.

[Marc]

Kooiman does sound interesting (and as mentioned OOP). Does anyone love him other than the Dutch? 
What are his strong points?

Here's a short, yet informative link, part of a very nice and informative Bach site:
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Kooiman-Ewald.htm

About his strong points: plz, it's midnight here, and my brains feel tired and empty.
Maybe it's the combination of straight-forward playing and sheer poetry.

Your question belongs to those likeable questions that are so hard to explain .... but I do know that each time I listen to Kooiman's Bach a certain tune of a certain KC comes to my mind: That's the way I like it!.

[Bulldog]

Thanks again guys.

I appreciate the Foccroulle reviews, Marc.

I'm also interested in further negative criticisms on Fagius, just to be informed.

Whom do you enjoy for Buxtehude, Que?

Kooiman does sound interesting (and as mentioned OOP). Does anyone love him other than the Dutch? 
What are his strong points?

It seems Premont recommends Alain II (not restored organs) & III (baroque organs, right, so I would prefer), Weinberger, Walcha mono, and the Hanssler discs.

He also says,
"Weinberger is as to style among the "avant garde" HIPs, Alain is a more "middle of the road" HIP."
I am interested in an elaboration of this observation.

Overall, it appears that organ playing in bach is a very contentious issue.

No more so than for Bach's other genres or other master composers.

Some observations:

Fagius - nothing special
Vogel/Loft - very special
Weinberger - 2 thumbs up
Rogg/Harmonia Mundi - Love it
Hanssler Series - A must
Berlin Classics Series - A must
Koopman - Hit or miss
Walcha - Essential
Hurford - Excellent
Herrick - Excellent
Ritchie - Excellent
Bowyer - Best to avoid
Jacob - Hit or miss
Preston - Hit or miss
Rubsam - Essential
Tillmanns - Avoid
Biggs - Essential
Suzuki/ClavierUbung III - A must
Germani - Excellent
Murray - Avoid
Porter - A must
Richter - A must
Leonhardt - A must
Weir - Hit or miss

[Clever Hans]

Thank you all again, and thanks for that list, Bulldog (Don)

Yes, I read the Bach Cantatas site all the time, so that was my first stop to finding out about Kooiman.

While I would agree that all art and recreative arts are contentious, I think Bach organ works can be a little more estoteric in performance and enigmatic in effect than average. Comparable to Beethoven's symphonies, because HIP and non-HIP can result in some pretty rigid opinions and "schools" On top of that, most people just do not listen to organ and expert critics are harder to find.

[Marc]

Some observations of Don!

HA!
In general, I like Bach's organ music played in a straightforward no-nonsense style .... more or less like Don / Bulldog's style here.

Dunno 'bout all of them, but let's respond with a quickie:

Fagius - nothing special. NO way! Thumbs up!
Vogel/Loft - very special. Dunno, but it doesn't surprise me. I rate Vogel very high.
Weinberger - 2 thumbs up. Well, let's say: essential.
Rogg/Harmonia Mundi - Love it. Dunno, but liked his EMI 2cds so far, and also his HM Christmas issue.
Hanssler Series - A must. Agreed, from what I've heard of them.
Berlin Classics Series - A must. Agreed, very interesting Silbermann collection of organs before most of them were restored.
Koopman - Hit or miss. The discussions on this board are a proof of that.
Walcha - Essential. No doubt.
Hurford - Excellent. I would say: rather good in a non-HIP way.
Herrick - Excellent. Not entirely my taste, but he's a communicator indeed.
Ritchie - Excellent. Agreed 100%.
Bowyer - Best to avoid. Yeah, probably. Too shallow in the end.
Jacob - Hit or miss. From his 3-cd sampler I would say: not bad at all.
Preston - Hit or miss. Great Trio Sonatas. For the rest: avoid.
Rubsam - Essential. Especially his OOP Philips integral. His Naxos is something special though: hit or miss.
Tillmanns - Avoid. Dunno.
Biggs - Essential. I own only 1 Power Biggs disc and I like it. Best name for an organist, btw!
Suzuki/ClavierUbung III - A must. Indeed a nice issue. Should listen to it again.
Germani - Excellent. Dunno.
Murray - Avoid. Agreed, except for some well-played chorales.
Porter - A must. Dunno.
Richter - A must. Not my taste.
Leonhardt - A must. Agreed.
Weir - Hit or miss. Her Organ Mass is very good IMO!

[Antoine Marchand]

... On top of that, most people just do not listen to organ and expert critics are harder to find.

... that's true and weird at the same time. I have frequently felt that in the organ music we find the most personal, intimate Bach; but this music requires much time to reveal its mysteries and that's not easy in the modern world. These works are like the ciphered diary of J.S. Bach.


 

[jlaurson]

No more so than for Bach's other genres or other master composers.

Some "observations":

specialveryspecialhitormisstwothumbsupspecialexcellentessentialextraessentialetc.

Now can we get a distinction between "A must", "Excellent", "Two Thumbs Up", and "Essential"?
Did you leave all the Marie-Claire Alains out for a reason? Ditto her student, whatshammacallhim... the one with the silly font on the box. Stockmeier, Knud...
(I assume that you do actually have every available cycle... am I wrong?)

[Bulldog]

Some observations of Don!

HA!
In general, I like Bach's organ music played in a straightforward no-nonsense style .... more or less like Don / Bulldog's style here.

Dunno 'bout all of them, but let's respond with a quickie:

Fagius - nothing special. NO way! Thumbs up!
Vogel/Loft - very special. Dunno, but it doesn't surprise me. I rate Vogel very high.
Weinberger - 2 thumbs up. Well, let's say: essential.
Rogg/Harmonia Mundi - Love it. Dunno, but liked his EMI 2cds so far, and also his HM Christmas issue.
Hanssler Series - A must. Agreed, from what I've heard of them.
Berlin Classics Series - A must. Agreed, very interesting Silbermann collection of organs before most of them were restored.
Koopman - Hit or miss. The discussions on this board are a proof of that.
Walcha - Essential. No doubt.
Hurford - Excellent. I would say: rather good in a non-HIP way.
Herrick - Excellent. Not entirely my taste, but he's a communicator indeed.
Ritchie - Excellent. Agreed 100%.
Bowyer - Best to avoid. Yeah, probably. Too shallow in the end.
Jacob - Hit or miss. From his 3-cd sampler I would say: not bad at all.
Preston - Hit or miss. Great Trio Sonatas. For the rest: avoid.
Rubsam - Essential. Especially his OOP Philips integral. His Naxos is something special though: hit or miss.
Tillmanns - Avoid. Dunno.
Biggs - Essential. I own only 1 Power Biggs disc and I like it. Best name for an organist, btw!
Suzuki/ClavierUbung III - A must. Indeed a nice issue. Should listen to it again.
Germani - Excellent. Dunno.
Murray - Avoid. Agreed, except for some well-played chorales.
Porter - A must. Dunno.
Richter - A must. Not my taste.
Leonhardt - A must. Agreed.
Weir - Hit or miss. Her Organ Mass is very good IMO!

I agree about Weir's Organ Mass, but her Leipzig Chorales are not as fine.