J.S. Bach on the Organ

Started by premont, April 29, 2007, 02:16:33 PM

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premont

Quote from: Marc on May 08, 2010, 09:49:41 PM
But since Isoir's integral was first published by HM in separate discs,

Never heard about HM releases of Isoirs Bach integral (and I acquired some of the individual CDs as early as 1982 - on Calliope).
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Marc

#801
Quote from: premont on May 09, 2010, 02:23:30 AM
Never heard about HM releases of Isoirs Bach integral (and I acquired some of the individual CDs as early as 1982 - on Calliope).
Yes, could be a misunderstanding by yours truly of the upcoming link. Maybe CALIOPE is/was a sub-label of Harmonia Mundi France?

Here's a list of Grenzing-organ recordings:

http://www.grenzing.com/cd.cfm?id=MCA

Example: Saint-Cyprien (Dordogne), Francia / Parróquia Saint-Cyprien / André Isoir / Jean-Sébastien Bach, Le Monde du Choral* L'Oeuvre pour Orgue intégral Vol. 4 / 1989, CALIOPE, harmonia mundi france (CAL 9706) 3 149025 040589

The HM labelno. looks like the one that Jens posted before. But the CAL no. is different .... and also different from the one that Ton mentioned. Probably CALIOPE gave different nos. to both the seperate and 'integrated' discs?

Marc

Oh, btw, right now I'm listening to this one:



Helga Schauerte plays Bach, Volume 3.

My first meeting with her in this oeuvre, I only heard one Buttstett issue before.

On first hearings: I think this is another good Bach interpreter, although the Fugues tend to be a bit tame.
About the SQ: a bit dry acoustics, but I like the sound of the Trost organ de la Walpurgiskirche de Großengottern (D). :)

What do the well-informed connaisseurs think about Schauerte's playing?

jlaurson

Quote from: Marc on May 08, 2010, 09:49:41 PM
Let me guess:
http://www.bayerische.staatsoper.de/upload/media/200912/28/13/rsys_29129_4b38a7880d0c7.pdf
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/05/music-of-nacho-duates-multiplicity.html
[dead link now]

something has gone funny with my tables... so it had to be taken down.
back later today, i hope.


QuoteI think the Bayerische Staatsoper made a mistake in their list of sources.
The Harmonia Mundi label no. is definitely OOP now.

OOP doesn't make their source-listing a mistake; they obviously took the numbers right off the discs that the choreographer provided them... discs from his collection and many of them OOP, actually. The question is: where are these pieces now... what re-issues.


QuoteBut since Isoir's integral was first published by HM in separate discs, the BWV 530 might have been part of that one.
BWV 957 was, as Ton already mentioned, no part of that integral.

Maybe the writers of the pdf-brochure forgot to add this source for BWV 957, played on a Harmonia Mundi issue:
http://www.amazon.com/J-S-Bach-Chorale-Preludes-Manuscript/dp/B000027O54/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273383477&sr=1-1

I'll try to track BWV 957 down!

Marc

Quote from: Marc on May 09, 2010, 03:09:19 AM
Oh, btw, right now I'm listening to this one:

Helga Schauerte plays Bach, Volume 3.

My first meeting with her in this oeuvre, I only heard one Buttstett issue before.

On first hearings: I think this is another good Bach interpreter, although the Fugues tend to be a bit tame.
About the SQ: a bit dry acoustics, but I like the sound of the Trost organ de la Walpurgiskirche de Großengottern (D). :)
On second thought: in general, I would say: Schauerte is another decent Bach interpreter, but there's not much to get really excited about. After listening, I felt more or less had the same as after listening to Kay Johannsen's recording of the Neumeister Chorales.

Quote from: jlaurson on May 09, 2010, 03:31:37 AM
OOP doesn't make their source-listing a mistake; they obviously took the numbers right off the discs that the choreographer provided them... discs from his collection and many of them OOP, actually. The question is: where are these pieces now... what re-issues.
That's not what I meant, sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I think that the HM no. refers to the original Isoir disc with BWV 530, and that the Bavarian mistake might be forgetting about mentioning the source disc for BWV 957. I'm quite sure that Isoir didn't make a recording of that one. There are some issues 'outside' his integral, but I couldn't find them there, either. So, who knows, maybe the BWV 957 source is indeed the Joseph Payne disc. I admit it's a wild guess, though.

premont

#805
Quote from: Marc on May 09, 2010, 02:49:37 AM
Yes, could be a misunderstanding by yours truly of the upcoming link. Maybe CALIOPE is/was a sub-label of Harmonia Mundi France?

Here's a list of Grenzing-organ recordings:

http://www.grenzing.com/cd.cfm?id=MCA

Thanks for the interesting Grenzing list.  :)

Probably Harmonia Mundi France is just the distributor of the Calliope CDs abroad.
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premont

Quote from: Marc on May 09, 2010, 03:09:19 AM


Helga Schauerte plays Bach, Volume 3.

What do the well-informed connaisseurs think about Schauerte's playing?

I have considered an investigation of Helga Schauerte´s ongoing Bach integral, but have not dared to do so yet. The reason is, that I have tried her Buxtehude, which I  find terribly contrieved, almost unlistenable. Well, her Bach may be better.
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Marc

Quote from: premont on May 09, 2010, 04:43:16 AM
[....] Probably Harmonia Mundi France is just the distributor of the Calliope CDs abroad.
Yes. But also giving the discs a unique HM labelnumber. I think that no. was used by the Bavarian State Opera.

Quote from: premont on May 09, 2010, 04:53:41 AM
I have considered an investigation of Helga Schauerte´s ongoing Bach integral, but have not dared to do so yet. The reason is, that I have tried her Buxtehude, which I  find terribly contrieved, almost unlistenable. Well, her Bach may be better.
I paid € 9,90 for the mp3-version (download). Apparently I wanted to throw some money away, and I couldn't resist the possibility to give a new name a place in my collection. :)

The further I got listening through this recording, the more difficult it was to keep my concentration. (Which, of course, could also be my own 'fault' ;).) But since this disc contains a lot of Neumeister chorales, maybe one has to check out a disc with more demanding pieces to give a more founded opinion.

Antoine Marchand

Quote from: Verena on May 09, 2010, 01:21:47 AM
Hello Antoine,

How do you rate that set? Thanks

Hi, Verena. If a general description of that set were necessary, I would describe it like highly personal and a bit uneven (the entire cycle comprises recordings from 1975 to 1991).

I have enjoyed it especially because of certain poetic quality that Isoir achieves at his best. IMO his best moments usually convey certain improvisatory feeling, have a quasi-lysergic mode, a daydreaming property (in general the big chorales are a good example). 

I generally prefer that music speaks for itself, free of idiosyncrasies, but I have frequently been moved for Isoir's poetic qualities and quite unclassifiable style... Other members –certainly more knowledgeable than me on stylistic matters- have a strongly unfavorable opinion about him, but I have never regretted the purchase of his complete cycle...  :)

Verena

QuoteHi, Verena. If a general description of that set were necessary, I would describe it like highly personal and a bit uneven (the entire cycle comprises recordings from 1975 to 1991).

I have enjoyed it especially because of certain poetic quality that Isoir achieves at his best. IMO his best moments usually convey certain improvisatory feeling, have a quasi-lysergic mode, a daydreaming property (in general the big chorales are a good example).

I generally prefer that music speaks for itself, free of idiosyncrasies, but I have frequently been moved for Isoir's poetic qualities and quite unclassifiable style... Other members –certainly more knowledgeable than me on stylistic matters- have a strongly unfavorable opinion about him, but I have never regretted the purchase of his complete cycle...  :)

Thanks a lot, Antoine! Sounds like it's a set that I'd enjoy very much. I guess I have to buy it sooner or later (preferably the former)  ::)
Don't think, but look! (PI66)

premont

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 09, 2010, 07:03:40 AM
I generally prefer that music speaks for itself, free of idiosyncrasies, but I have frequently been moved for Isoir's poetic qualities and quite unclassifiable style... Other members –certainly more knowledgeable than me on stylistic matters- have a strongly unfavorable opinion about him, but I have never regretted the purchase of his complete cycle...  :)

Your description of Isoir´s style is very good IMO. I would add,  that I do not consider his set to be basic listening, but preferably additional listening, when you know the basic sets (and of course the works as such) well.
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Verena

QuoteYour description of Isoir´s style is very good IMO. I would add,  that I do not consider his set to be basic listening, but preferably additional listening, when you know the basic sets (and of course the works as such) well.

What are the basic sets you'd recommend? The Walcha sets? Preston? Chapuis? I read many people recommending Chapuis, but that set is OOP (of course).   :'(
Don't think, but look! (PI66)

Marc

#812
Quote from: premont on May 09, 2010, 01:29:08 PM
Your description of Isoir´s style is very good IMO. I would add,  that I do not consider his set to be basic listening, but preferably additional listening, when you know the basic sets (and of course the works as such) well.
Being a genuine bore I just wanted to say that I feel the same way about mr. Isoir's Bach as gentlemen Ton K. & AvantMontagne. ;D

Quote from: Verena on May 09, 2010, 01:54:10 PM
What are the basic sets you'd recommend? The Walcha sets? Preston? Chapuis? I read many people recommending Chapuis, but that set is OOP (of course).   :'(
Dare I make another mention of this link?
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=a9bde7d5f3ec24dcab1eab3e9fa335cada2afa0b1a1c041e
It's a download possibility of another OOP integral, the first one of Wolfgang Rübsam (for Philips).
For the rest: based on the two or three discs I've listened to, I would not recommend Chapuis. Preston offers good Trio Sonatas and Third Clavier-Übung (AKA Orgelmesse), but I'm not that fond of his cat on a hot tin roof way of playing in many of the large choral-free works.

Walcha is good, solid, generally non-legato playing with great respect for detail and polyphony, but maybe a bit old-fashioned in registrating and dynamics.
The second set of Marie-Claire Alain (on non-historic organs) is still available, and that's a good choice .... though without the Neumeister chorales.
If you like historic instruments, then both Gerhard Weinberger and Bernard Foccroulle offer great integrals IMO. It's almost impossible to get entirely pleased in such a large oeuvre, but both maintain a high level throughout.

Oh, and if you want to have fun, combined with some useful advice (one never knows ;)): just download this entire thread and read it! :D
For instance: a quick download per page in Notepad. Members like Antoine Marchand, Premont, Bulldog, Que and many others have written here with great enthousiasm about these organ works and their performers. It's nice reading stuff and, FWIW, they all gave me great advices! :)

premont

Quote from: Verena on May 09, 2010, 01:54:10 PM
What are the basic sets you'd recommend? The Walcha sets? Preston? Chapuis? I read many people recommending Chapuis, but that set is OOP (of course).   :'(

Yes, maybe Walcha, who´s two integrals were the listening, which converted me to Bach. But this was in the days just before the HIP movement broke out. To day I would consider Alain´s second set and Foccroulle´s set the most obvious basic listening. If Kooiman´s second set and Rübsam´s first set were available p.t.. I would add these.
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premont

Crossing posts, Marc - show how much we actually agree on this. :)
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Marc

Quote from: premont on May 09, 2010, 02:09:45 PM
Yes, maybe Walcha, who´s two integrals were the listening, which converted me to Bach. But this was in the days just before the HIP movement broke out. To day I would consider Alain´s second set and Foccroulle´s set the most obvious basic listening. If Kooiman´s second set and Rübsam´s first set were available p.t.. I would add these.
And .... Alessio Corti, and .... Bram Beekman.
Rübsam has got that mp3-link I mentioned.

Still available and another possibility: Ton Koopman on Teldec. Reissued (like Foccroulle on Ricercar) in a nicely priced set. One has to be in a 'certain' mood to enjoy his playing, but let's be fair to the man: sure, sometimes he's too playful in a juvenile way ;), but he sure can play some very moving chorale stuff IMO! And there are some nice organs in his set, too!

Marc

Quote from: premont on May 09, 2010, 02:14:08 PM
Crossing posts, Marc - show how much we actually agree on this. :)
Mmm, maybe I ruined it with my added Koopman story? :-[

jlaurson

#817
Quote from: premont on May 09, 2010, 02:09:45 PM
Yes, maybe Walcha, who´s two integrals were the listening, which converted me to Bach. But this was in the days just before the HIP movement broke out. To day I would consider Alain´s second set and Foccroulle´s set the most obvious basic listening. If Kooiman´s second set and Rübsam´s first set were available p.t.. I would add these.

For what it's worth: Yes on Walcha, but on his second integral (the first one is far from integral, in any case, and not nearly as interesting, I find).

Also: Yes on Alain II, which you can get for a good price from Amazon.de (Best deal I know of, even if you're in the US.)
Yes, too, on Koopman, but he's not at all available in the US yet.
If you are interested in Alain at all, this is BY FAR the least expensive way:
Amazon.fr, used, like new

Having listened to it for the first time in many years, my opinion of Stockmeir has actually gone UP considerably: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000009DIR?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000009DIR

(for reference: the sets i've got on my shelves (and listened to, since that's apparently not one and the same at GMG) are:

Walcha I, II
Alain II
Koopman (Warner)
Weinberger
Stockmeier
Fagius
Rogg II
Vernet

+

about half of Bowers,
about half of Berlin Classics' "Silbermann" cycle


Scarpia

Quote from: Marc on May 08, 2010, 10:28:52 PM
http://www.mediafire.com/?zg40jrennx5

(Aria in F-Major [after Couperin] BWV 587, played by Gerhard Weinberger)

Of course this is just a small example. Volume 15 of Weinberger's integral offers a broad insight in the possibilities of this instrument:

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Organ-Works-Vol-15/dp/B0001WGEIE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273385900&sr=1-3

Oh, btw: about the 'clumsy' mechanical linkages. Maybe it would be a nice idea to visit an organ builder in your spare time. IMHO, there's nothing clumsy about the mechanics of (neo-) historic organs. :)

I have the Weinberger cycle, I don't recall if I've heard volume 15 yet.  My comments about the antique actions come from Marie-Clair Alain, who in the notes to one of her cycles (I don't recall if it was the 2nd or 3rd, I've had both at one time or another) commented that confronting the manual of the restored organs gave her a new respect for the performers of the era and by necessity changed the way she performed the works.

Marc

Quote from: jlaurson on May 09, 2010, 02:31:52 PM
For what it's worth: Yes on Walcha, but on his second integral (the first one is far from integral, in any case, and not nearly as interesting, I find).

Also: Yes on Alain II, which you can get for a good price from Amazon.de (Best deal I know of, even if you're in the US.)

Having listened to it for the first time in many years, my opinion of Stockmeir has actually gone UP considerably: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000009DIR?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000009DIR

(for reference: the sets i've got on my shelves (and listened to, since that's apparently not one and the same at GMG) are:

Walcha I, II
Alain II
Koopman (Warner)
Weinberger
Stockmeier
Fagius
Rogg II
Vernet

+

about half of Bowers,
about half of Berlin Classics' "Silbermann" cycle
Jens! You hit some spots there! I forgot to mention the satisfying results of Stockmeier, Fagius and Vernet. (These three are still available.)
Again, I pushed the 'send' buttom too hastily. :-[

But still, Verena can check out the entire thread .... I recall that about two months ago we were also discussing the 'best' integral. Rogg II is OOP .... and concerning Walcha I (mono), I personally don't agree that it's less interesting as his second (stereo). But sure, the mono sound might be unattractive to some (although it's quite good, considering the recording years 1947-1952).

About completeness: sure, Walcha I is far from complete, but that goes for Walcha II, too. And for many others. And guys like Bowyer and Weinberger are almost over-complete.

Ah, before I forget: another non-complete integral ;) I can recommend is the one by American organist George Ritchie (Raven). Only 11 discs, but very worthwhile listening!