J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Verena]

Thanks so much, Marc, jlaurson, premont for your great advice!!! The idea of saving the whole thread with notepad is also great, Marc. I guess the Alain II set will be the first I'll buy - it's really affordable since I don't have to pay shipping costs; but some of the others will certainly have to follow as soon as the money is available ...

[Marc]

I have the Weinberger cycle, I don't recall if I've heard volume 15 yet.  My comments about the antique actions come from Marie-Clair Alain, who in the notes to one of her cycles (I don't recall if it was the 2nd or 3rd, I've had both at one time or another) commented that confronting the manual of the restored organs gave her a new respect for the performers of the era and by necessity changed the way she performed the works.

I see. I think it would be her 3rd then. In that one, Alain opted for historical organs only. And yes, it's a different way of playing, I'm pretty convinced of that. It's more hard labour. In many cases the pedals are shorter, too. So this makes toe-heel playing fairly impossible. Hence the HIP-hypothesis that this 'ancient' music should be played non-legato, simply because legato playing was technically very difficult or even impossible.

Ton Koopman for instance always likes to tell his tale about my short legs, which meant that he was forced to use only his toes. Without even attending or reading a HIP-approved lecture or book, he already did it 'right'.

And Virgil Fox was flabbergasting his American audiences with his Bach playing on modern organs, but in Europe he couldn't handle the oldies at all .... or so the story goes.

[jlaurson]

Walcha I (mono), I personally don't agree that it's less interesting as his second (stereo). But sure, the mono sound might be unattractive to some (although it's quite good, considering the recording years 1947-1952).

If nothing else, we can agree on the sound; the reason I don't really find Walcha I all that recommendable is not the sound which, apart from a bit of traffic noise and the natural 'grain' you'd expect from recordings that old, is much better than I feared it might be.

Rogg II is OOP but still can be had via Amazon.fr at reasonable prices. It's where I got my copy from, and it made me happy. 

@Verena, I think Alain II is a very good place to start, indeed.

@Scarpia: That comment of Alain's was on her third cycle.

@Marc: Didn't Alain move specifically to all-toe playing for her integral no.3?

[Marc]

Thanks so much, Marc, jlaurson, premont for your great advice!!! The idea of saving the whole thread with notepad is also great, Marc. I guess the Alain II set will be the first I'll buy - it's really affordable since I don't have to pay shipping costs; but some of the others will certainly have to follow as soon as the money is available ...

It's a rock-solid choice!
I would like to add the possibility of buying single organ discs, too. There are many skilled performers who never did an integral, but delivered some gems! Like Gustav Leonhardt .... and a lot of others. You'll stumble upon their names whilst digging through this thread, I'm sure.

@Jens: Vive La France!
(Though I just hid my wallett, before getting tempted.)

Another @Jens: dunno about Alain III and her own adaptations really, except that she picked the oldies for that one. But yes, to truthful HIP-sters the all-toe playing is essential!

[jlaurson]

It's a rock-solid choice!
I would like to add the Possibility of buying single organ discs, too. There are many skilled performers who never did an integral, but delivered some gems! Like Gustav Leonhardt .... and a lot of others. You'll stumble upon their names whilst digging through this thread, I'm sure.

Speaking of single discs: I know not everyone is quite as high off that set as I am, but enough share my passion that it's worth considering:

Karl Richter's 3 CD set is staggering in several instances. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/12/best-recordings-of-2005.html

Also: Organ Mass with Bowyers. Art of the Fugue with Isoir.

[Verena]

Richter's 3 CD set and a Leonhardt CD just found their way into my shopping basket.. 

[Scarpia]

Richter's 3 CD set and a Leonhardt CD just found their way into my shopping basket.. 

Can't hold a candle to Richter's previous organ recital

[Verena]

Can't hold a candle to Richter's previous organ recital

and that one's only available on LP, right?

[Scarpia]

and that one's only available on LP, right?

I have it on CD (from the "Classic Sound" series). 

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Organ-Recital-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B0000042GR/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273450152&sr=8-5

[Verena]

I have it on CD (from the "Classic Sound" series).

http://www.amazon.com/Bach-Organ-Recital-Johann-Sebastian/dp/B0000042GR/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1273450152&sr=8-5

Perfect. Not even particularly expensive. Many Thanks!

[Antoine Marchand]

This double-CD is also an excellent option:


Bach - Great Organ Works
Gustav Leonhardt

$14.95, new and $6.49 used on the AMP.

[Verena]

This double-CD is also an excellent option:


Bach - Great Organ Works
Gustav Leonhardt

$14.95, new and $6.49 used on the AMP.

Thanks Antoine!! I'll snap it up. If it weren't for the market place sellers, I'd be poorer than a church mouse.   

[Scarpia]

Perfect. Not even particularly expensive. Many Thanks!

Beware, very non-HIP, performed on the organ in Victoria Hall (the home the l'Orchestre de la Suisse Romande).

[Verena]

Beware, very non-HIP, performed on the organ in Victoria Hall (the home the l'Orchestre de la Suisse Romande).

I'm no longer the HIP-PIE that I formerly was, so I may still give it a try .. Thanks for making me aware of this.

[Marc]

This double-CD is also an excellent option:
Bach - Great Organ Works
Gustav Leonhardt

Agreement here. It's a gem.

FWIW: I placed a link before, with a download possibility of the Rübsam-Philips integral.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=a9bde7d5f3ec24dcab1eab3e9fa335cada2afa0b1a1c041e

Dunno if there's a reliable track-list included. Thanx to a good friend I can offer a link with scans of the booklet. So, for anyone who's interested in downloading mr. Rübsam's very good OOP first integral, here are the scans (in a zip-file):
http://www.mediafire.com/?wmhjj03wken

And I couldn't resist to upload some more OOP stuff:

Piet Wiersma playing the Lohman organ (1817) of the Reformed Church of Eenrum, NL. His last recordings, only a few hours before his sudden death.
Fantasia & Fugue in C-minor BWV 562/574
http://www.mediafire.com/?mmma2yyzdnm

To compare: Alessio Corti playing the neo-classical Tamburini organ della Chiesa Christiana Protestante in Milano.
Fantasia & Fugue in C-minor BWV 562/574
http://www.mediafire.com/?n12jnnzhzlu

About the coupling of BWV 562 and 574: I simply like them together. In Corti's OOP integral, BWV 562 and 574 are separate, yet successive tracks. So he might agree with me. And Walter Kraft, who did the same, too.

Two chorale arrangements:
Bram Beekman playing the famous Van Hagerbeer/Schnitger organ of the St. Laurenskerk in Alkmaar, NL.
Wir glauben all' an einen Gott BWV 740
http://www.mediafire.com/?lnwmytedtey

Alessio Corti playing the Tamburini organ della Chiesa di Santa Maria Segreta in Milano.
Erbarm' dich mein, o Herre Gott BWV 721
http://www.mediafire.com/?02iwtwz2mkd

Both these chorales are considered spurious by some scholars. But I love them anyway. (And why not? )
BWV 740 could be composed or arranged by Johann Ludwig Krebs, one of Bach's most talented pupils.
And from the first time I heard BWV 721 (in a church service at Good Friday 2009, in the intermission between the two parts of Bach's SJ Passion), it reminded me of the Erbarme dich, mein Gott aria from the Matthäus-Passion. To me, there's a striking resemblance in the idea of teardrops falling in the bass.

Again: if the links aren't working or creating any problems, please let me know.

[kishnevi]

Re Rogg: there are these three budget double CDs from EMI




At least some of these are recent (2007/2009) remasterings.

Re: Alain

I have a single CD from Erato in which Alain plays the Schubler Chorales, and various Fugues and allied works (BWV numbers 565,564,582,578,566).  There's no recording data other than a release date of 1981 from Erato's Collection Bonsai.  Anyone know where this fits into Alain's cycles?  The CD, which is one of the first CDs I ever bought (meaning about the mid-80s) doesn't seem to correspond to anything offered by Amazon or Arkiv.

[Marc]

[....]
Re: Alain

I have a single CD from Erato in which Alain plays the Schubler Chorales, and various Fugues and allied works (BWV numbers 565,564,582,578,566).  There's no recording data other than a release date of 1981 from Erato's Collection Bonsai.  Anyone know where this fits into Alain's cycles?  The CD, which is one of the first CDs I ever bought (meaning about the mid-80s) doesn't seem to correspond to anything offered by Amazon or Arkiv.

Probably this one:



http://www.amazon.de/Orgelwerke-Marie-Claire-Alain/dp/B000024EM6

And maybe this was the Bonsai cover:



Alain did 3 integrals (the first never reissued on cd).
In between, she did a few other 'single' recordings, too.
Nevertheless I think that this one is a sampler from her 2nd integral, considering the Erato Bonsai year of 1981.

Alain did f.i. some other 565, 578 and 582 recordings in August 1982 at the Schwenkedel organ de la Collégiale de Saint-Donat. That one was released in 1983, and reissued in 1985 with a different cover.
Because of the recording date, these performances can't be the same as 'yours'. But the timings are more or less the same as in her 2nd integral, which makes things a bit complicated. Apparently she was rather consistent in her interpretation during those years, which might even indicate that your disc contains other performances than the ones of her 2nd integral.

Are there any organs mentioned at your disc?
Because if so, then this information might help:
For the 2nd integral, Alain used these organs:
BWV 565, 564, 566: Marcussen organ, Sankt Nikolai Kirke, Kolding, Danmark.
BWV 578: Metzler organ, Mariastein Basilica, Switzerland.
BWV 582 & 645-650: Schwenkedel organ, Collégiale de Saint-Donat, Drôme, France.

Well, I hope that somewhere in this post an answer to your question is given.

[prémont]

Alain did f.i. some other 565, 578 and 582 recordings in August 1982 at the Schwenkedel organ de la Collégiale de Saint-Donat. That one was released in 1983, and reissued in 1985 with a different cover.

This is your source I suppose:

http://www.france-orgue.fr/disque/index.php?zpg=dsq.eng.rch&org=%22Marie-Claire+ALAIN%22&tit=&oeu=&ins=&cdo=1&dvo=1&vno=1&edi=&nrow=90&cmd=Previous

BTW I have not made an A/B test, but I never found any reasonable reason to doubt, that the Bonsai CD contains exclusively recordings from the second integral, which I already knew relatively well (LP´s), when I acquired the Bonsai CD. But you may be right, that the consistency in her interpretations may make the question of other sources actual. Have you got any information about the cover for the Saint-Donat recording from 1982?

[Marc]

This is your source I suppose:

http://www.france-orgue.fr/disque/index.php?zpg=dsq.eng.rch&org=%22Marie-Claire+ALAIN%22&tit=&oeu=&ins=&cdo=1&dvo=1&vno=1&edi=&nrow=90&cmd=Previous

BTW I have not made an A/B test, but I never found any reasonable reason to doubt, that the Bonsai CD contains exclusively recordings from the second integral, which I already knew relatively well (LP´s), when I acquired the Bonsai CD. But you may be right, that the consistency in her interpretations may make the question of other sources actual. Have you got any information about the cover for the Saint-Donat recording from 1982?

Well, at first I was pretty much convinced 'bout that 2nd integral story, but the image of the backcover of Kishnevi's disc at Amazon.de (link posted before) gives the idea, although it's hardly legible, that only two organs were 'used' for the 'Bonsai' cd: the Marcussen and Schwenkedel. Which doesn't correspond with the little research I did earlier today .... but maybe Erato did some sloppy source mentioning. This happens sometimes with sampler discs.

Here are the pics:
The first pic is of the vinyl issue of 1983, which btw was the first organ recording I bought myself. It was also issued on CD and MC.



The second pic: cd reissue of 1985.



About the sources: in almost every searching matter, I use Google first or, in specific Bach cases, I immediately check Bachcantatas.com. Thanks to both I could acquire recording data and pics of these discs ....

[Marc]

Plz plz plz, let me upload one more .... .
A special one for moderator Que: Ewald Kooiman is playing the Concerto in A-minor, BachWorshipsVivaldi 593, at the Hinsz-organ of the Bovenkerk in Kampen, NL.
http://www.mediafire.com/?25t5jggyymm