J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Marc]

Well, we suppose that Bach valued gravity, judged from his ideas about the upgrading of the Mühlheisen organ and from his approval of the Naumburg organ. Now I think gravity is a characteristic of the sound of the organ more than a way to describe the playing. Remember that Bach used to take the tempo rather fast. IMO the cause of the missing gravity in Rübsam´s BWV 538, 544 et.c. is, that the Metzler organ, he has chosen, lacks gravity, at least as documented by these recordings. Its low registers lack substance, f.i. the HW principal 16´ sounds more like a gedacht than like a principal. I have on the other hand not heard the organ live nor on other recordings, and I can not swear that the engineer may not be part of the problem, and in this context it is interesting to note, that Rübsam later became his own engineer. Whatever the cause - I do not think Rübsam´s playing lacks weight despite the rather fast tempo.

I understand.
I mainly reply because the 'wish for more gravity' in some of Bach's organ works is caused by my own preferences, not because of a historically based supposition that Bach himself might have valued it.
I've read many times that Bach preferred large organs with 32ft pedal towers, but personally I don't find it necessary. One of the best 'live' Passacaglias I heard was played on the 'only' 16ft organ of Noordbroek (built by Schnitger), played by Craig Cramer. More than sufficient Gravität in that performance!
Wish I had put a mp3-recorder/player in my head that evening. In that case I would be able to open my mouth at any time, for others to share the thrill!

[Mandryka]

Take Contrapunctus I or the first part of the unfinished fugue.  His soft registration and the tremulant make these pieces a kind of mourning music, which I think is foreign to the serene gravity I see in them. And  Contrapunctus I – XI are from Bach´s hand a suite of variation movements arranged in the order of growing complexity and musical intensity. Your supposed "story" behind the music is by itself a romantic idea.

So when I read stuff like Philip Pickett on the Brandenburgs, is that unstylish? -- I mean the way he links the pieces to allegory.

http://www.recorderhomepage.net/brandenburgs.html

It would be interesting to hear why your gravity is more stylish than Rubsam's mourning -- are you just going to point to the score or are you going to go beyond the score I wonder.

[kishnevi]

Interjecting here a moment....
It seems to me that Premont is using the term "gravity" to describe a certain sonic quality of some organs.  Is that so, and if so, could explain/supply synonyms?  Because I'm used to the term as a decription for how the music is played--a quality supplied by the organist, and not the organ,  and therefore for me "mourning" (to use the example just cited here on the thread) goes quite well with "gravity"--and not merely because it allows one to make a pun about "grave" music.

[prémont]

So when I read stuff like Philip Pickett on the Brandenburgs, is that unstylish? -- I mean the way he links the pieces to allegory.
http://www.recorderhomepage.net/brandenburgs.html

Unstylish is not the proper description, but I think his thoughts are far out. I read them when I acquired his recording about 15 years ago. Of course I can not "prove" him vrong more than he can prove that he is right. However his interpretation is not marked by his thoughts in any particular way, and it is also difficult to see in what way they might be so.

It would be interesting to hear why your gravity is more stylish than Rubsam's mourning -- are you just going to point to the score or are you going to go beyond the score I wonder.

Well. I go beyond the score as such, keeping in mind that this is baroque music and not romantic music.

[prémont]

It seems to me that Premont is using the term "gravity" to describe a certain sonic quality of some organs.  Is that so, and if so, could explain/supply synonyms?  Because I'm used to the term as a decription for how the music is played--a quality supplied by the organist, and not the organ,  and therefore for me "mourning" (to use the example just cited here on the thread) goes quite well with "gravity"--and not merely because it allows one to make a pun about "grave" music.

Above I used the word gravity in the way Bach did (Gravitas), describing the effect a deep organ stop (he wrote about a 32ft subbas stop) may have on the total sound of an organ, adding weighty sonic basis to the sound.

[prémont]

I mainly reply because the 'wish for more gravity' in some of Bach's organ works is caused by my own preferences, not because of a historically based supposition that Bach himself might have valued it.
I've read many times that Bach preferred large organs with 32ft pedal towers, but personally I don't find it necessary.

As you may expect I agree with you in this.
A propos Bach and Gravitas: I own a recording of BWV 565 by Gabor Lehotka on a historical organ in Sopron, Hungary. The organ is a 4ft organ and listening to this you suddenly understand that the parallel octaves in the toccata was written in this way to add some gravitas and to make the organ sound bigger.

[Karl Henning]

Gravi-demi-tasse

[kishnevi]

Above I used the word gravity in the way Bach did (Gravitas), describing the effect a deep organ stop (he wrote about a 32ft subbas stop) may have on the total sound of an organ, adding weighty sonic basis to the sound.

Thanks for clarifying.  I think the confusion lies in the fact that "gravitas"/"gravity" is not usually used in English in that sense--outside of physics it's more a word with a psychological connotation than a physical one.  We'd probably reach for a word like "mass/massive",  "heft", "density", etc.

[Marc]

Last Wednesday the Dutch poet Rutger Kopland died.
About 20 years ago, together with a fellow student, I wrote my thesis about him.

Here's a poem about Bach the organist (and translated in English).
No Gravität, but Leichtigkeit.

EEN KORAAL

Volgens zijn tijdgenoten was Johann Sebastian Bach
een virtuoos organist – hij speelde met
een onnavolgbare 'Leichtigkeit'

lichthandigheid zou je het kunnen noemen, maar dan zo
licht dat het was alsof het geen handen waren
die speelden

ik vermoed dat ik wel weet hoe het klonk
alsof ik hoor hoe hij het zelf is die daar boven
in deze kerk in die kleine machinekamer
muziek zit te maken

je hoort het eeuwenoude mechaniek, het gekreun
van scharnieren, het geklepper van toetsen
het gekraak van de vloer, het zuchten van wind
hoe er van lucht muziek wordt gemaakt

en er een koraal langzaam door de ruimte zweeft
als een onzichtbare gewichtloze vogel
Leichtigkeit

A CHORALE

According to his contemporaries Johann Sebastian Bach was
a virtuoso organist – he played with
an inimitable 'Leichtigkeit'

light-handedness you could call this, but then so
light that it seemed as if it weren't hands
that were playing

I think I know how it sounded
as if I can hear it's the man himself
up there in this church in his tiny engine room
making music

you can hear the age-old mechanism, the groaning
of hinges, the clatter of keys
the floor creaking, the wind sighing
how music is made out of air

and a chorale slowly floats through this space
as an invisible weightless bird
Leichtigkeit

There's a sound example on the next link, in which Kopland is reciting his own poem (in Dutch).

I've heard him reciting a few times, which was always an event.

http://www.poetryinternationalweb.net/pi/site/poem/item/16667/auto/A-CHORALE

[Que]

And what do you guys think of this?  0:)

Upon sampling it sounded historically informed and modestestly articulated but also quite sweet toothed!

And the sound of the organ of the Martinikerk sounded a bit muffled...

Q

[Marc]

And what do you guys think of this?  0:)

Upon sampling it sounded historically informed and modestestly articulated but also quite sweet toothed!

And the sound of the organ of the Martinikerk sounded a bit muffled...

Q

Is this the one with the Passacaglia and the spurious Sarabande con partitis?
On my issue in da house it says Bach Organ Works Volume 1.

If you've got this same first volume, then I would say: it's a nice disc and worthwhile having, also because that Sarabande is rarely played, but I haven't seen a 'Volume 2' by Liebig yet, so I'll have to postpone a more 'solid judgement'.
About the sound: I don't recall it being a bit muffled, but it's been some time since I last listened to it.

Btw: I heard the Martini several times 'live' (again) this year and .... well .... this instrument is nothing but magnificento!

[Que]

Is this the one with the Passacaglia and the spurious Sarabande con partitis?
On my issue in da house it says Bach Organ Works Volume 1.

That's the one! The sound issue can be a compressed file matter, since I listened online.

Q

[stingo]

Forgive me for not reading all 83 pages of the thread before posting, but noticed there was some initial discussion of Fagius' 5 SACD set. I have the set and liked (but not loved) what I heard. What other issues should I consider?

[Que]

Forgive me for not reading all 83 pages of the thread before posting, but noticed there was some initial discussion of Fagius' 5 SACD set. I have the set and liked (but not loved) what I heard. What other issues should I consider?

Maybe give us some clues.   What didn't quite do it for you with Fagius? Do you prefer HIP playing and/or historically correct instruments?

If the answer to both is yes, I would recommend Koopman, provided you don't mind a liberal use of embellishments.

Olivier Vernet is also pretty good, but too bad that not all his organs are up to scratch. The playing is quite impressive, however.

Q

[Lilas Pastia]

I am currently alternating listenings of Bach by Fagius and Vernet. Most of the time I find Vernet more imaginative and involving in direct comparison. But Fagius' instruments are just as good as Verner's.

I didn't hear anything I didn't like in the organs Vernet uses - but I'm not through the whole set yet - about 65% of the way.

Which organ (s) do you find not up to scratch?

[milk]

I'm enjoying this recording immensely.

[prémont]

Maybe off topic, maybe not.

http://www.heraldargus.com/articles/2010/10/02/features/business/doc4ca569e7b46e0222793199.txt

[Opus106]

Intégrale des œuvres pour orgue jouée sur des orgues Silbermann par Ewald Kooiman, Ute Gremmel-Geuchen, Gerhard Gnann et Bernhard Klapprott

Self-explanatory even for a non-francophone like moi.

[milk]

Maybe off topic, maybe not.

http://www.heraldargus.com/articles/2010/10/02/features/business/doc4ca569e7b46e0222793199.txt

I don't know what to make of this but I enjoyed the read. Thanks for the link. I wonder if you get to listen to organ music while you're getting your cut.

[jlaurson]

Intégrale des œuvres pour orgue jouée sur des orgues Silbermann par Ewald Kooiman, Ute Gremmel-Geuchen, Gerhard Gnann et Bernhard Klapprott

Self-explanatory even for a non-francophone like moi.

Mewants, mewants, mewants.