J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Marc]

Anyone have thoughts on Alain III v.s. Ritchie v.s. Weinberger?  If it helps, the two sets I currently own are Foccroulle and Vernet.

Alain was the teacher of Vernet. She's maybe less free than her pupil.

Ritchie and Weinberger have a (more or less) similar strict HIP(-influenced) approach towards Bach, Weinberger being (far) more complete with a more interesting choice of instruments.
But of the HIP(-influenced) bunch I'd say that Foccroulle is more satisfying.

So: considering the two sets you already own, Koopman and Rübsam (Naxos) are more interesting alternatives IMHO.
Other options: Walcha II (DG). It's the Golden Oldie choice.
Koopman and pupils (Aeolus): quite expensive, but rather impressive, on French Silbermann organs. Valid for money, no doubt.

[Parsifal]

Best I can remember, the only thing that bothered me about his set was that the soundstage was overly reverberant in two or three of the discs.

On Weinberger we agree.  The comments I've read above that he is professorial, scholastic or stuffy don't match my experience.  I'd say his style is focused on making individual voices audible, rather than creating a monumental sound.

[Mandryka]

On Weinberger we agree.  The comments I've read above that he is professorial, scholastic or stuffy don't match my experience.  I'd say his style is focused on making individual voices audible, rather than creating a monumental sound.

I've really got a lot out of listening to Weinberger's Art of Fugue.  It's not just because you can hear all the voices, but because of the way he makes the voices interleave and interrelate. There's tons of struggle and tension in his counterpoint, a million miles away from Foccroulle's style.  I thought some of the chorales, in the orgelbuchlein, were really very fine too. And even the trio sonatas have some really magic things in them, an extrordinary largo from 5 for example, and 3.


Another set I've found pretty stimulating to dip into is Hans Fagius's.

[Sammy]

By the way folks, a plea for more specific threads. We don't want to wade through 100 pages of meandering comments on this block of 17 hours of music. Bach organ works- complete recordings is fine, but otherwise I'd always just start individual threads and get more focused discussions on The Bach organ Preludes and fugues or The German organ mass etc. I couldn't be bothered with titles like the present one...

So start your own organ threads and stop complaining.

By the way, I didn't know you were the spokesperson for a group of people - "We don't want to wade through".....

[Parsifal]

So start your own organ threads and stop complaining.

By the way, I didn't know you were the spokesperson for a group of people - "We don't want to wade through".....

Either it's the "royal we" or a case of multiple personality disorder.

[Wakefield]

Kay Johannsen's performance scores high points with me as well.

Q

+3.

He and M-C Alain (from her second cycle) are two of my favorites. 

[kishnevi]

Either it's the "royal we" or a case of multiple personality disorder.

It's a mixture of both: APD, or Arrogant Personality Disorder.

On the real topic under discussion--bear in mind that we're dealing with a large body of work, written over several decades, and encompassing several different musical genres.  To expect one organist to excel over 16 CDs worth of such material is to ask for a perfection only rarely attainable by mortals.

FWIW (and I admit it's probably not much), here's what I have, listed in basic order of preference

Tier I
Vernet
Tier II
the Hanssler Classic cycle "by diverse hands" so to speak
Koopman
Tier III
Alain II
Preston

I've not yet listened to Foccroulle--he's got two WTCs ahead of him in The Pile (Leonhardt and Feltsman).

I would probably rate Alain II higher except for the feeling that in several of the chorales CDs, she seemed to be chugging through a contractual obligation and not recording music she actually wanted to perform.

[Sean]

Hard to imagine a more reliable, clear headed way to get into this music, recorded over a dozen years but with great stylistic continuity.



And a royal we? I'll go with that, I'd make a fine monarch, King Sean I.

[Mandryka]

Can someone who likes Johannsen's Bach please say something about it? like why they like it.  I have to decide whether to listen to some of it.

[Geo Dude]

On the real topic under discussion--bear in mind that we're dealing with a large body of work, written over several decades, and encompassing several different musical genres.  To expect one organist to excel over 16 CDs worth of such material is to ask for a perfection only rarely attainable by mortals.

Agreed.  I'm under no illusions that any set I get will be perfect all the way through.

I would probably rate Alain II higher except for the feeling that in several of the chorales CDs, she seemed to be chugging through a contractual obligation and not recording music she actually wanted to perform.

Thanks for the thoughts on Alain II, specifically.  I wasn't leaning toward Alain II as an immediate purchase (though it seems a given to purchase at some point), but I am fond of many of the chorales I've heard and will take that into consideration.

As is, this Weinberger set has me just fascinated given the instruments involved and all the controversy it stirs up amongst members here.  It seems that that set supplemented by some of the Rubsam recordings might be the route I take.

[alyosha]

I would appreciate some help with the opening motif of the BWV 552 "St. Anne" prelude.

It is often performed with a measure at the chosen main tempo, then a measure of ritenuto (or your preferred term for a sudden and significant slowing), then a measure a tempo, then another of ritenuto, then a tempo on into the piece until the chordal motif recurs. There is no indication for the ritenuto in the scores i've checked. Please note that i am not referring to rubato within (introductory) passages read as improvisatory / played ad lib. Rather i'm at a loss re slamming rapidly back and forth between distinct tempi.

Performers vary a great deal: from no ritenuto, or minor enough to be considered rubato in the spirit of HIP harpsichord; through moderate ritenuto that puzzles me but doesn't completely suspend forward movement; through interruptions of the flow that sound bizarre to me, the last including HIP organists such as Weinberger and Fagius (and of course not-so-HIP, such as Rubsam on Naxos).

There are HIP (- as far as i can tell) organists on all parts of this spectrum. Yet the more ritenuto end of the range is common, and is more puzzling to me than the typical diversity of interpretations. It seems quite out of keeping with my (newbie) familiarity with the many many chordal moments in other Bach organ works which are not treated in this way, as well my (more informed) sense of other Bach genres* and baroque HIP more generally**.

* Among the countless chordal passages in Bach that one pretty much never hears played this way, i'm especially struck by the similarity with the opening of the E minor "harpsichord" Partitia BWV 830. I don't think i've ever heard it played, by no matter how romantic or postmodern an interpreter, with the rapid-cycling ritenuto one can easily find in BWV 552.

** Apart from occasions in dramatic contexts such as opera, these jolting changes in tempo seem to go against general conceptions of baroque music such as the affects, the nature of tempo, the unity of "movements", etc. (I claim only an "advanced beginner"s understanding re the theory, but have listened to vast amounts of HIP baroque.)

So i'm left wondering: Is there a performance tradition re this particular piece? Or what is going on; what am i missing?

[kishnevi]

Agreed.  I'm under no illusions that any set I get will be perfect all the way through.

Thanks for the thoughts on Alain II, specifically.  I wasn't leaning toward Alain II as an immediate purchase (though it seems a given to purchase at some point), but I am fond of many of the chorales I've heard and will take that into consideration.

As is, this Weinberger set has me just fascinated given the instruments involved and all the controversy it stirs up amongst members here.  It seems that that set supplemented by some of the Rubsam recordings might be the route I take.

On the plus side for Alain II, she's very good in the freeform works (the fugues, etc.), and of course I simply may have been experiencing listening fatigue at that particular moment...

I see you're moving up in keyboard addictions!

[Parsifal]

Can someone who likes Johannsen's Bach please say something about it? like why they like it.  I have to decide whether to listen to some of it.

The only Johannsen I have listened to is the disc of trio sonatas.  I like the fact that the registration and articulation produces a very transparent effect and that in this recording it is easy to distinguish the three voices and hear the counterpoint clearly.

[Mandryka]

The only Johannsen I have listened to is the disc of trio sonatas.  I like the fact that the registration and articulation produces a very transparent effect and that in this recording it is easy to distinguish the three voices and hear the counterpoint clearly.

OK. Trio Sonata 5 is on spotify. I'll listen tonight.

As is, this Weinberger set has me just fascinated given the instruments involved and all the controversy it stirs up amongst members here.  It seems that that set supplemented by some of the Rubsam recordings might be the route I take.

I've been listening all day to Weinberger play the Trio Sonatas. He doesn't really do smiling and upbeat like Power Biggs, or exciting like Walcha. But it's full of revealing stuff nevertheless and I think in its way he's sometimes (slow movements esp)  as  poetic as  Power Biggs and Walcha and Alain or whoever. Weinberger's Bach is hard, tough. Like with Rubsam you have to clean your mind of expectations first I think.

Trio sonata 6 is particularly rich  and strange.

By the way, if you do explore Rubsam on Naxos, I think the Leipzig Chorales are particularly fine.

[Sean]

Hi alyosha, if you can play Bach you're doing better than most...

Did you think of posting on the performance board? Don't know how active it is right now...

[alyosha]

Hi alyosha, if you can play Bach you're doing better than most...

Oh no -- i'm only posting as a listener. A listener and wanna-be understander...

[Sean]

Well you've got my interest but it's slightly too technical perhaps and I'd tend to go with whatever decision the reputable interpreter of the day might make of it.

Try some Stokowski arrangements for something to really quibble about. BWV595 is the business.

[North Star]

Well you've got my interest but it's slightly too technical perhaps and I'd tend to go with whatever decision the reputable interpreter of the day might make of it.

Try some Stokowski arrangements for something to really quibble about. BWV595 is the business.

I asssume you mean BWV 565

[Sean]

I do.

Getting my Mozart in a twist.

[Geo Dude]

I see you're moving up in keyboard addictions!