J.S. Bach on the Organ

[Marc]

That Kooiman/Weinberger book is certainly interesting ... if one understands German of course.

Personally, I prefer Bach played with a lively articulation and phrasing, but I can appreciate many different ways of playing when his organ music is concerned.

Did we already mention Knud Vad as a good alternative for Harry?

[Mandryka]

I don't read German unfortunately. There's nothing in English or French?

[Marc]

I don't read German unfortunately. There's nothing in English or French?

Kooiman & Weinberger's book is a very interesting essay, but, IIRC, they do not claim they are presenting some kind of an undeniable historical truth.
Likewise, Peter Williams Volume 3 of his famous work The organ music of J.S. Bach (published by Cambridge University Press), is presenting a background based on historical sources. Again, in the end there are maybe more questions than answers.

To make things more 'easy', here's a few links that you might find interesting.
First, some guiding articles for the organist, and quite understandable for the interested layman, to get a general idea:

http://www.organduo.lt/home/how-to-choose-the-best-fingering-in-early-organ-music
http://www.organduo.lt/home/how-to-choose-the-most-efficient-fingering-for-organ-music-composed-after-1800-part-1
http://www.organduo.lt/home/how-to-choose-the-most-efficient-fingering-for-organ-music-composed-after-1800-part-2

More specific stuff about keyboard practice and articulation during Bach's time:
http://www.academia.edu/291948/Keyboard_technique_and_articulation_evidence_for_the_performance_practices_of_Bach_Handel_and_Scarlatti

And here's a critical review of Peter Williams's book:
http://scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1262&context=ppr

http://www.amazon.com/The-Organ-Music-Bach-Background/dp/0521379784/?tag=goodmusicguideco

[Harry]

Excellent links Marc, thank you!

[prémont]

Kooiman & Weinberger's book is a very interesting essay, but, IIRC, they do not claim they are presenting some kind of an undeniable historical truth.
Likewise, Peter Williams Volume 3 of his famous work The organ music of J.S. Bach (published by Cambridge University Press), is presenting a background based on historical sources. Again, in the end there are maybe more questions than answers.

There is nothing surprising in this, since every scientific "truth" isn´t but a relative truth, and neither Kooiman & Weinberger nor Peter Williams pretend to offer more than part of the probable truth, and this has something to do with the character of their sources, but their way is the only sensible way to get to know at least something about the topic. The only other way is to take the score by itself as a point of departure - like f.i. Walcha - but this leads to even more questionable results.

[Mandryka]

Kooiman & Weinberger's book is a very interesting essay, but, IIRC, they do not claim they are presenting some kind of an undeniable historical truth.
Likewise, Peter Williams Volume 3 of his famous work The organ music of J.S. Bach (published by Cambridge University Press), is presenting a background based on historical sources. Again, in the end there are maybe more questions than answers.

To make things more 'easy', here's a few links that you might find interesting.
First, some guiding articles for the organist, and quite understandable for the interested layman, to get a general idea:

http://www.organduo.lt/home/how-to-choose-the-best-fingering-in-early-organ-music
http://www.organduo.lt/home/how-to-choose-the-most-efficient-fingering-for-organ-music-composed-after-1800-part-1
http://www.organduo.lt/home/how-to-choose-the-most-efficient-fingering-for-organ-music-composed-after-1800-part-2

More specific stuff about keyboard practice and articulation during Bach's time:
http://www.academia.edu/291948/Keyboard_technique_and_articulation_evidence_for_the_performance_practices_of_Bach_Handel_and_Scarlatti

And here's a critical review of Peter Williams's book:
http://scholarship.claremont.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1262&context=ppr

http://www.amazon.com/The-Organ-Music-Bach-Background/dp/0521379784/?tag=goodmusicguideco

Thanks I thought the article by Mark Lindley was interesting. Presumably there's no reason to think that ideas in manuals about touch in harpsichord would pass over to organ - I'm thinking of some of the things that Lindley quotes from Rameau.

Re Bach, well this discussion prompted me to listen to Egarr's Goldbergs and his WTC2. Too much legato? It's hard to separate ideas about touch from ideas about articulation. I'm not clear in my own mind about how the point at which a new note is sounded relates to the length of a phrase, and how these two ideas relate to the concept (probably ill defined) of cantabile. More questions than answers again.

[Mookalafalas]

Another vote for the Knud Vad, and how about the Stefano Molardi from the humble Brilliant label?  I bought the latest Brilliant Bach box and had low expectations for the organ portion (Stefano Molardi?), but color me impressed.  Maybe it's because I'm a noob to organ, but I love his simple, clean sound.  In some of the more touted versions, I really can't follow the musical lines due to being overwhelmed by the sheer volume and density of the "wall of sound" organ effect.  Molardi, however, has made me a fan.

[Harry]

Another vote for the Knud Vad, and how about the Stefano Molardi from the humble Brilliant label?  I bought the latest Brilliant Bach box and had low expectations for the organ portion (Stefano Molardi?), but color me impressed.  Maybe it's because I'm a noob to organ, but I love his simple, clean sound.  In some of the more touted versions, I really can't follow the musical lines due to being overwhelmed by the sheer volume and density of the "wall of sound" organ effect.  Molardi, however, has made me a fan.

Molardi is really a bad performance, and its not only me that is thinking this, most of the critics do too.

[Mookalafalas]

Molardi is really a bad performance, and its not only me that is thinking this, most of the critics do too.

I'm not surprised.  The sound is simple, unadorned, and not very dramatic.  However, the critical consensus against it will not make me enjoy it less. In fact, I'm listening to it right now and enjoying it very much

[Jo498]

A German professor of mine once related this introductory sentence in an essay on Bach he (allegedly) received:

"Johann Sebastian Bach had 20 children. He was an old master of the grand organ."

But this joke does not work in German at all?! "Orgel" or "Organist" has no connotation to reproductive organs in German. (And I might be dense, but I cannot think of any German paraphrase that would make the joke work...)

(Sorry to butt in in such a frivolous fashion. But I have now read this joke for the fourth time or so working my way through this thread, and the (involuntary) joke only works in English. So whoever told it, it is at least slightly confusing to introduce him as a "German professor")

[Jo498]

So, I think I read about 80% of this thread. And I read two and half more on two German language fora (but none of them had more than 10 pages... Exhausting and slightly confusing. There seem to be at least as many diverging opinions on the respective recordings as there are discutants...
Maybe the only recordings that seem to be generally admired (or at least respected) are Walcha's, for almost any other well known or easily available ones I find often rather decisive pro/con opinions...

Although a few famous Bach organ pieces were among the first classical music I encountered - I especially remember BWV 565 and the Wachet auf transcription (Schübler), I have not really warmed to most of those pieces even after more than 25 years. Only about the trio sonatas and maybe the Passacaglia and the E flat major P&F I could say that I love them, I don't know most of the rest very well (many pieces not at all).

Why is this a "problem"? Because I love most of the other music by Bach I know, especially the "standard" keyboard stuff and I think I *should* like the organ music better than I do in fact. I am really struggling with most of the chorale based pieces (boring) and while I like some of the big P&F etc. I tend to find the organ sound often to overwhelming and not clear enough.

It seems that in this thread the minimal unit is a complete recording.. but I do not really feel like getting one. (Among the cheap and available ones, only Walcha mono seems consensus...). I'd rather like some pointers to single (or double discs) that might change my perception that the chorale-based pieces are boring and the others "walls of sound". Or maybe how I should listen to the stuff I already have.

I list below what I already have on my shelves
(I also just ordered a "best-of" twofer of the stereo Walcha, one disc with Krapp (the CÜ "small chorales") and one double with Corti (on one German language forum there is a rabid fan of his Bach), and it was cheap...)

Koopman's cheapo 6 disc collection (originally Novalis)

Power Biggs (at Thomaskirche?) (Berlin Classics): 541, 547,565, 582

Tachezi (Teldec): BWV 542, 552, 564, 565, 582

F. Friedrich, Trost Organ Altenburg (Capriccio) BWV 545, 552, 537, 437, 680, 751, 711, 739, 769

H. Kästner, Schuke Organ Thomaskirche (Capriccio) BWV 572, 645, 542, 565, 639, 547

Spanyi (and maybe some others) on a Cheapo disc: 547, 565, "Dorian" and a few more

from the Bach on Silbermann (Berlin Classics) Vols 3, 4, and 9,
containing about 4 trio sonatas, Vom Himmel hoch, Passacaglia, 565, 542, 590, 532, 549, 539, 547, chorales etc.)

Weinberger/cpo: Vols 12 (525, 528, 566, Neumeister Chorales), 13 (P&F 552 and "great" (pedal) chorales from CÜ III) 15 (Concertos, Schübler chorals, Ricercar from BWV 1079), 16 (572, 527, 530, 769a etc.) I got those cheaply when jpc was apparently getting rid of the single discs before they put them all in the complete box.

Trio Sonatas: John Butt (hm), K. Johanssen (Hänssler), Power Biggs (pedal harpsichord, that's still my favorite from the time when I cared even less for the sound of the organ)

Clavierübung III Brosse (Pierre Verany)

incomplete AoF: Gould (Sony) this is cool but hardly sounds like a "real organ"

[kishnevi]

The only names I would suggest are Alain and Rogg.  Alain recorded a couple of CDs for (the original) Erato in addition to the full cycles she recorded.  What-used-to be EMI issued some budget duos from Rogg's cycle in its Gemini series.

When you get around to full cycles, I suggest looking at ones that go by (tentative) chronology, and not by genre.  That way you get a mix of chorales, and free form works,  instead of getting five CDs of fugues and seven of chorales and only chorales in a row (or whatever the actual CD totals might be).

My favorite cycle is Vernet, but it is now out of print and a budget buster ($350 on Amazon US Marketplace).  Individual discs are available.  But I would suggest this one as a nice change of pace
[asin]B00004VMRX[/asin]
The keyboard concertos played with chamber organs as the solo instruments.

[Mandryka]

So, I think I read about 80% of this thread. And I read two and half more on two German language fora (but none of them had more than 10 pages... Exhausting and slightly confusing. There seem to be at least as many diverging opinions on the respective recordings as there are discutants...
Maybe the only recordings that seem to be generally admired (or at least respected) are Walcha's, for almost any other well known or easily available ones I find often rather decisive pro/con opinions...

Although a few famous Bach organ pieces were among the first classical music I encountered - I especially remember BWV 565 and the Wachet auf transcription (Schübler), I have not really warmed to most of those pieces even after more than 25 years. Only about the trio sonatas and maybe the Passacaglia and the E flat major P&F I could say that I love them, I don't know most of the rest very well (many pieces not at all).

Why is this a "problem"? Because I love most of the other music by Bach I know, especially the "standard" keyboard stuff and I think I *should* like the organ music better than I do in fact. I am really struggling with most of the chorale based pieces (boring) and while I like some of the big P&F etc. I tend to find the organ sound often to overwhelming and not clear enough.

It seems that in this thread the minimal unit is a complete recording.. but I do not really feel like getting one. (Among the cheap and available ones, only Walcha mono seems consensus...). I'd rather like some pointers to single (or double discs) that might change my perception that the chorale-based pieces are boring and the others "walls of sound". Or maybe how I should listen to the stuff I already have.
O
I list below what I already have on my shelves
(I also just ordered a "best-of" twofer of the stereo Walcha, one disc with Krapp (the CÜ "small chorales") and one double with Corti (on one German language forum there is a rabid fan of his Bach), and it was cheap...)

Koopman's cheapo 6 disc collection (originally Novalis)

Power Biggs (at Thomaskirche?) (Berlin Classics): 541, 547,565, 582

Tachezi (Teldec): BWV 542, 552, 564, 565, 582

F. Friedrich, Trost Organ Altenburg (Capriccio) BWV 545, 552, 537, 437, 680, 751, 711, 739, 769

H. Kästner, Schuke Organ Thomaskirche (Capriccio) BWV 572, 645, 542, 565, 639, 547

Spanyi (and maybe some others) on a Cheapo disc: 547, 565, "Dorian" and a few more

from the Bach on Silbermann (Berlin Classics) Vols 3, 4, and 9,
containing about 4 trio sonatas, Vom Himmel hoch, Passacaglia, 565, 542, 590, 532, 549, 539, 547, chorales etc.)

Weinberger/cpo: Vols 12 (525, 528, 566, Neumeister Chorales), 13 (P&F 552 and "great" (pedal) chorales from CÜ III) 15 (Concertos, Schübler chorals, Ricercar from BWV 1079), 16 (572, 527, 530, 769a etc.) I got those cheaply when jpc was apparently getting rid of the single discs before they put them all in the complete box.

Trio Sonatas: John Butt (hm), K. Johanssen (Hänssler), Power Biggs (pedal harpsichord, that's still my favorite from the time when I cared even less for the sound of the organ)

Clavierübung III Brosse (Pierre Verany)

incomplete AoF: Gould (Sony) this is cool but hardly sounds like a "real organ"

On one of your Berlin Classics CDs there's a trio sonata played by Erich Piasetzki. And on  your Koopman CDs there's a BWV 656 and a BWV 688, and BWV 669-671 And on the Weinberger there's the Ricercar from Opfer and possibly 669-671 too, I'm not sure.  I'd start there.

[jlaurson]

But this joke does not work in German at all?! "Orgel" or "Organist" has no connotation to reproductive organs in German. (And I might be dense, but I cannot think of any German paraphrase that would make the joke work...)

(Sorry to butt in in such a frivolous fashion. But I have now read this joke for the fourth time or so working my way through this thread, and the (involuntary) joke only works in English. So whoever told it, it is at least slightly confusing to introduce him as a "German professor")

It was a professor of German, not a German professor, I suppose. I suppose on an international forum that context isn't necessarily clear.

[Marc]

On one of your Berlin Classics CDs there's a trio sonata played by Erich Piasetzki. And on  your Koopman CDs there's a BWV 656 and a BWV 688, and BWV 669-671 And on the Weinberger there's the Ricercar from Opfer and possibly 669-671 too, I'm not sure.  I'd start there.

Good advices IMO.
And if Jo, after checking these out, still isn't converted to Bach's organ, well, it's just something that can happen. One's own taste is one's best gauge. As he himself indicated, there's still aplenty to enjoy in the BWV.

By the way, I love Bach's organ music (no kidding. ).
To me, it's a great mix of a thrilling comfort and a comforting thrill.

[Marc]

Oh, and Jo, thanks for mentioning Jean-Patrice Brosse's CU III!
I didn't know that one and just ordered it (library).

[Jo498]

Thanks.
As I said, the trio sonatas are exceptions for me. I basically got to know them in that Power Biggs pedal harpsichord recording, immediately loved them and while this is still my favorite, I also like them on the organ.

That I have the J.-P. Brosse recording must be more of an accident. It probably was cheap and/or someone on a German forum recommended it. Be warned: some of the manualiter chorales and/or the duets are played on harpsichord.

[prémont]

That I have the J.-P. Brosse recording must be more of an accident. It probably was cheap and/or someone on a German forum recommended it. Be warned: some of the manualiter chorales and/or the duets are played on harpsichord.

All the manualiter chorales and the duets are played on harpsichord. This is what makes the recording interesting to me, as I am not a great fan of his organ playing.

[Jo498]

Yes, the whole 2nd disc is on harpsichord, I had not been sure. I really don't remember, it could be that this was also a point for me because I am not so fond of the organ sound. The first disc on organ is somewhat messy, not very transparent sound. I am not really familiar enough with Clavierübung III (except P&F 552) but I prefer Weinberger's comparably "dry" sound. Tomorrow I'll hopefully receive Krapp's disc with the "smaller pieces" of CÜ III.

[xochitl]

anyone know of recordings of historical organs still in their original non-ET state (or at least some alternate later tuning)? apparently a lot of them have been re-tuned in the last centuries? it's been a real slog trying to find info