Bernstein says that Beethoven was the greatest composer

[paulb]

I disagree.

Though Beethoven was a great composer , I am not ready to call him the greatest composer ever.
Mendelssohn's early (age 13-14) piano trios concertos and quartets contradict Bernstein's  assertion. Even Mozart's symphony No.40 in G minor would discredit his comments.

He makes this comment in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZYn865RiRE&feature=related

I agree, Bernstein in this 1970's clip has gone a tad too far in his opinion. Now had Bernstein said "quite possibly the world's most enjoyed , respected and influential composer ", then  he has  a  strong case for his    opinion.
IOW its very possible Beethoven has the greater edge in terms of popularity over Mozart. So in a  broad sense Bernstein would havea   ligitimate POV.
I am not so sure he held onto that statement he made in 1970's,  later in his life.

[Saul]

This is really quite amusing stuff coming from you. I did not suggest ALL your posts are about or inspired by religion, try reading what I wrote. I am quite accustomed to your trait of trying to turn the tables on anyone who deals directly with you. People can judge for themselves who the zealot is here.

Mike

Now, I am a zealot?

Ok mike, you are not a 'Zealot' ... go now and march with your trophy..

[lukeottevanger]

How much again is a brazzilian?

I believe it's as little as you can get away with.....

[Saul]

I agree, Bernstein in this 1970's clip has gone a tad too far in his opinion. Now had Bernstein said "quite possibly the world's most enjoyed , respected and influential composer ", then  he has  a  strong case for his    opinion.
IOW its very possible Beethoven has the greater edge in terms of popularity over Mozart. So in a  broad sense Bernstein would havea   ligitimate POV.
I am not so sure he held onto that statement he made in 1970's,  later in his life.

Fine post...

[Saul]

You guys are all guilty on what you are blaming me of.

You threw your hands when I say Mendelssohn is the greatest composer, but say not a word when Bernstein said that Beethoven was the greatest composer.

Utter favoritism.

[Mark]

You guys are all guilty on what you are blaming me of.

You threw your hands when I say Mendelssohn is the greatest composer, but say not a word when Bernstein said that Beethoven was the greatest composer.

Utter favoritism.

Or perhaps, we think Beethoven is the greatest composer?

[(poco) Sforzando]

I agree, Bernstein in this 1970's clip has gone a tad too far in his opinion. Now had Bernstein said "quite possibly the world's most enjoyed , respected and influential composer ", then  he has  a  strong case for his    opinion.
IOW its very possible Beethoven has the greater edge in terms of popularity over Mozart. So in a  broad sense Bernstein would havea   ligitimate POV.

(Throws up hands.)

I am not so sure he held onto that statement he made in 1970's,  later in his life.

By 1970, the year of the Beethoven bicentennial, Bernstein was already 52. What reason do you have to believe he changed his mind between then and his death in 1990?

[(poco) Sforzando]

You threw your hands when I say Mendelssohn is the greatest composer, but say not a word when Bernstein said that Beethoven was the greatest composer.

a) Bernstein has a lot more credibility.
b) Bernstein is a lot closer to generally accepted opinion.
c) Bernstein states a point of view that many here agree with.

[paulb]

Fine post...

back in the early 60's just abput every household that hada   *phonograph player* *stereo console*, and bought classical, owned the ubiquitious Joseph Krips set of Beethoven 9 syms/1960 relesaed  Like for $15 one could own all 9 syms in one set.
This is the latest incarnation of that set, which originally was issued ina   big blue box. ahh I remember going to friends house listening to those LP's, .. ..after a  few months ownership, the LP's had lots and lots of scratches.
We didn't mind, we trained to learn to listen w/o scratch distortion

sure Mozart was also in people's collection, but nothing, except Tchaikovsky, took precedence over Beethoven. Bernstein may have been caught in that wave of enthusiasm in the 1960's over Beethoven's gripping and  powerful 9 syms.

This is the *tin box* release

[knight66]

a) Bernstein has a lot more credibility.
b) Bernstein is a lot closer to generally accepted opinion.
c) Bernstein states a point of view that many here agree with.

Also, Bernstein did not seem to imply that anyone who did not agree with him is in some way defective.

Mike

[paulb]

(Throws up hands.)

By 1970, the year of the Beethoven bicentennial, Bernstein was already 52. What reason do you have to believe he changed his mind between then and his death in 1990?

read my new  post above for one possibilty of explaination.
I am saying he *might have changed* his POV.

[knight66]

sure Mozart was also in people's collection, but nothing, except Tchaikovsky, took precedence over Beethoven. Bernstein may have been caught in that wave of enthusiasm in the 1960's over Beethoven's gripping and  powerful 9 syms.

I kind of got the impression he arrived at his decisions through working with the scores and analysing them.

Mike

[paulb]

Or perhaps, we think Beethoven is the greatest composer?

very many people actually do believe and hold this POV.
Everyone has the right to their persaonl opinion.
I own no cds (one vc  recording with Oistrakh, perhaps) of Beethoven.

[(poco) Sforzando]

back in the early 60's just abput every household that hada   *phonograph player* *stereo console*, and bought classical, owned the ubiquitious Joseph Krips set of Beethoven 9 syms/1960 relesaed  Like for $15 one could own all 9 syms in one set.
This is the latest incarnation of that set, which originally was issued ina   big blue box. ahh I remember going to friends house listening to those LP's, .. ..after a  few months ownership, the LP's had lots and lots of scratches.
We didn't mind, we trained to learn to listen w/o scratch distortion

sure Mozart was also in people's collection, but nothing, except Tchaikovsky, took precedence over Beethoven. Bernstein may have been caught in that wave of enthusiasm in the 1960's over Beethoven's gripping and  powerful 9: NB syms.

We had the Toscanini set - 7 LPs from the Book of the Month Club. Enthusiasm for Beethoven, I assure you, dates far back from the 1960s.

[Saul]

Also, Bernstein did not seem to imply that anyone who did not agree with him is in some way defective.

Mike

Where did I emply that anyone who disagrees with me is defective?

Mike... what's with you.. such blatant accusations?

[(poco) Sforzando]

read my new  post above for one possibilty of explaination.
I am saying he *might have changed* his POV.

There's not an iota of possibility that was the case. At his very last concert, at Tanglewood in 1990, he programmed the Beethoven 7th while deathly ill from emphysema. One month later he keeled over dead in his Manhattan apartment.

[paulb]

I kind of got the impression he arrived at his decisions through working with the scores and analysing them.

Mike

But if this is so, then how could Bernstein miss the incredible passages in Mozart's 25th pc and the 41st sym, and then go on to make that statement as to Beethoven the greatest.
I just feel he made the comment *off the cuff*, and if challenged later in life would have responded * did I say that?, huh, of well*

[paulb]

There's not an iota of possibility that was the case. At his very last concert, at Tanglewood in 1990, he programmed the Beethoven 7th while deathly ill from emphysema. One month later he keeled over dead in his Manhattan apartment.

Well then  this does stand against my idea.
So Bernstein was a  Beethovenian. Nothing wrong with his personal POV, that Beethoven was for him , the greatest of all composers.
but obviously Bernstein had the greatest respect and love almost equal to Beethoven, for Mozart and his cherished Mahler.
We are talking minor, unimportant details about how Bernstein valued his favorite composers.

[lukeottevanger]

Just to play devil's advocate for sec..Is this necessary though.?..I don't think it is; personally I think most people realize that Beethoven (and Mozart) were great formal innovators who laid down a lot of groundwork for future composers, they were important in otherwords... but I too just don't care much for their music either and how it sounds, and could easily live without... I believe the over emphasis on their great achievements is a bit misguided, heavy-handed and overstated. It's overhyped. So much so that we're continously beaten over the head with it & other composers who have did great things are rather underexposed and undervalued in comparison; many great things in the 20th century are grossly neglected...and take J.S. Bach for instance, he is rather under exposed in terms of actual concert performance time - considering his towering stature. People pay lip service but he is more revered in name than celebrated in the concert hall. While Mozart & Beethoven (YAWN) and safe romantic stuff is overestimated and dominating...

That doesn't seem too much the 'devil's advocate' for me, I must say. It seems a perfectly sensible, thought-through post - you offer a personal opinion on Beethoven (and Mozart); then you say it is your opinion that they may be a bit overhyped, and possibly to the detriment of other composers. I don't necessarily agree with this at all, but I can respect it. Who knows, you may have a point... that's a bigger discussion than we've got here, though!

[knight66]

Where did I emply that anyone who disagrees with me is defective?

Mike... what's with you.. such blatant accusations?

Where did I say that you did? Start reading what is there.

Mike