Bernstein says that Beethoven was the greatest composer

[Mark]

I own no cds (one vc  recording with Oistrakh, perhaps) of Beethoven.

And I own every note of his work, either in boxed sets or on countless individual CDs. I can't pretend I've heard it all yet, but what I have heard tells me that Ludwig was far and away a greater innovator than Felix - not to mention more imaginative, inventive and epoch-defining. No one points to a work by Mendelssohn and says, 'That piece changed music forever'. But Beethoven's music did have an impact on the course of musical history. That, in my book, is just one way in which Herr Beethoven might be considered greater than Herr Mendelssohn.

[springrite]

The secret of a fast growing thread at GMG is to have both paulb an Saul in the...uh...discussion.


Beethoven at different times said Handel and Cherubini to be the greatest composer until that time in history. Why are we even discussing the validity of opinions, especially when participants have little or no qualification other than the ability to give their own personal opinion. It is a bit like someone who knows the answer to 1+1=2 giving their opinion on who is the greatest mathematician in history.

I am out!

[Saul]

Where did I say that you did? Start reading what is there.

Mike

Ok got it, there are two ways to understand your comment, its clear now.

[paulb]

And I own every note of his work, either in boxed sets or on countless individual CDs. I can't pretend I've heard it all yet, but what I have heard tells me that Ludwig was far and away a greater innovator than Felix - not to mention more imaginative, inventive and epoch-defining. No one points to a work by Mendelssohn and says, 'That piece changed music forever'. But Beethoven's music did have an impact on the course of musical history. That, in my book, is just one way in which Herr Beethoven might be considered greater than Herr Mendelssohn.

well Saul does go over board if he made that opinion about Mendelssohn as more important a  composer than Beethoven

HI Paul, how ya bin?

Why would you bring up Saul and I as associated in any way?

If you go to a  any shopping mall in america, and ask  5 quick questions on various topics, , response has to be in one second, one of the questions being
Name one composer?
Beethoven would be #1 answer.

[JoshLilly]

Beethoven at different times said Handel and Cherubini to be the greatest composer until that time in history.

Beethoven might have named Cherubini because of how French composers handled the orchestra, which sometime around his 2nd or 3rd symphony he very clearly began to incorporate into his own orchestral writing. For example, Grétry, Cherubini, and others had the "Beethoven Sound" with regards to orchestral writing in many ways back in the late 1780s or early 1790s. The use of orchestra in Grétry's 1784 opera Richard Cœur de Lion would probably really surprise a lot of people. Or hear the overture to Méhul's Stratonice... would you believe that was from 1792?!?! Holy cow. Beethoven didn't even do that sort of thing with orchestra until around his Symphony #5. To anyone not familiar, and not expecting, the dates on some of that French music and its use of orchestra could really floor them. I mean, not only the general texture, but the striking hammer-chords and stuff, some of Beethoven's favourite tricks, right there to hear.  To me, I think it was great Beethoven did this, because I love what he came up with using this "French orchestral style", usually I feel he improved on a good thing. I just wish more people could hear the overture to Méhul's Stratonice or something. It places Beethoven more in the context of his time, rather than if he existed in vacuum.

Okay, enough rambling.

Anyways, I've often wondered what was behind Beethoven's high opinion of Cherubini. I really like Cherubini myself, but I've never really heard much specific from Beethoven on the matter except translations of some brief, general quote. There's no accounting for taste, but I wonder if there was more to it than simple like, but something along the lines of similarity, or influence, or something.

[greg]

If you go to a  any shopping mall in america, and ask  5 quick questions on various topics, , response has to be in one second, one of the questions being
Name one composer?
Beethoven would be #1 answer.

yes, unfortunately for me........

[BachQ]

Okay, enough rambling.

Relative to many other posts spewed forth today, your post embodies sleek elegance ........ 

[karlhenning]

You threw your hands when I say Mendelssohn is the greatest composer, but say not a word when Bernstein said that Beethoven was the greatest composer.

Bernstein's remark is plausible.

Yours is not.

[karlhenning]

But if this is so, then how could Bernstein miss the incredible passages in Mozart's 25th pc and the 41st sym, and then go on to make that statement as to Beethoven the greatest.

Because there are passages of supreme excellence in Beethoven, too, Paul.

[karlhenning]

The secret of a fast growing thread at GMG is to have both paulb an Saul in the...uh...discussion.

0:)

[Saul]

Bernstein's remark is plausible.

Yours is not.

Hardly.

He said the same thing...'He is the greatest'...

[(poco) Sforzando]

Anyways, I've often wondered what was behind Beethoven's high opinion of Cherubini.

He probably felt there was little competition. And following Haydn's death between 1810-25 he was probably right.* Schubert would have been little known (though Beethoven did admire the songs of his that he saw), and he regarded Rossini with a mixture of envy and disdain for his enormous popularity ("The Italians take weeks to write operas that take us Germans months.") He did come to admire Cherubini's Requiem (I assume the C minor) over Mozart's. And I believe the Triple Concerto is considered Beethoven's most Cherubini-like composition.

----
* Bullet-proof vest on, knowing this crowd.

[karlhenning]

Hardly.

He said the same thing...'He is the greatest'...

He did not say "the same thing."  He applied that adjective to an artist of greater stature than Mendelssohn.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Relative to many other posts spewed forth today, your post embodies sleek elegance ........ 

Indeed, though much of it is already well-known to musicologists.

[Saul]

He did not say "the same thing."  He applied that adjective to an artist of greater stature than Mendelssohn.

Not true.

He said his "opinion" about Beethoven , just as I about Mendelssohn.

[not edward]

Not true.

He said his "opinion" about Beethoven , just as I about Mendelssohn.

All opinions are equally valid? You're treading on dangerous ground here, methinks.

[Saul]

All opinions are equally valid? You're treading on dangerous ground here, methinks.

Welcome to planet Earth.

[not edward]

Welcome to planet Earth.

Can you please take some trolling lessons? You're not even any good at it.

[Saul]

Can you please take some trolling lessons? You're not even any good at it.

Thank goodness...

[Mark]

well Saul does go over board if he made that opinion about Mendelssohn as more important a  composer than Beethoven

Yeah, that's basically Saul's premise: Mendelssohn is greater than Beethoven.

As to why you got dragged into this farce, maybe something you posted gave people the impression that you agree with Saul's premise.