Bernd Alois Zimmermann (1918-1970)

[mjwal]

Actually, I think Zimmermann has been my favourite (I'm obviously not saying the best) post-WW2 composer for some time, probably dating from the great Frankfurt Die Soldaten production in the 70s. I have a CD recording (Kontarsky?), also a DVD, both not here in Berlin to identify in detail. Neither can approach the visceral effect produced by Gielen in the opera house. I remember Nan Christie as the tragic abused heroine,  heart-breaking. Of his other works, it might be a good idea to listen to his Soldaten-Sinfonie, of which I have a recording I found online years ago, possibly still there (an avant-garde project is all I can remember), as a way of getting into the opera's music. PS. Just looked - here: http://avantgardeproject.conus.info/mirror/AGP10/index.htm
Other works I have at one time or another found online are:
Die Befristeten - music for a radio performance of Canetti's play, played by the Manfred Schoof quintet, avant-garde (at the time) jazz,
Tratto - a great piece of early mood electronics from 1966.
Stille und Umkehr in a fairly recent concert transcription by Gierster and the Nürnberg PO.
Sinfonie in 1.Satz cond. Rattle - not bad at all - I found it better than Metzmacher.
Photoptosis cond. Oramo + BPO - which I like a lot, it betters the one I have on CD imho, and has better sound than the one I got to know it by on LP, which in places sounds really deranged, whereas the Col Legno CD performance of it is rather too neat and controlled for my taste, although that is an essential collection.
Omnia tempus habent - late work for soprano & ensemble, Sabine Schneider, Rüdiger Bohn + Ens.
Can't really identify the sources, I'm afraid, no doubt one or 2 have vanished from the evanescent web scene, leaving not a rack behind...
I also have a couple of CDs with early 40s/50s music by B.A.Z., stuff for the radio etc, which you would probably never guess the author of.

BAZ getting no mucho love on GMG here, oy vey, wt*


Just re-discovered his 'Requiem for A Young Poet', and it seems to be the cat's meow. The SONY is completely unavailable, but the Wergo (with Bryn-Julson) is. Any comments on these two? I think there's a third too.

And I'm interested in 'Die Soldaten' also, would that be Telarc for the sonics's sake?

There's not much BAZ. iT'S EVEN WORSE THAN WITH bABBITT. whoops... Is there no one here who'll  BAZCHAT?

He really knew how to layer a lot of things going on at once so that everything can be heard.

[snyprrr]

So, I await the Kontarsky 'Soldaten'. This should be interesting...


i WAS watching both the Pierre Strauch and Thomas Demenga videos of the Sonata for Solo Cello, and I realized as i was enjoying all the technique- and I saw a glimpse of that Peter Greenaway movie about the librarian, and how this culture that enriched me could be taken away by Totalitarianism. Truly, this Modern World of 2016 can go blow itself!

[snyprrr]

Symphony in One Movement


Violin Sonata
Concerto for Violin
Solo Violin Sonata

(Solo) Viola Sonata (1955)


Tempus Loquendi for Solo Flute
(Solo) Cello Sonata (1960)
4 Short Studies for cello (1970)


The last grouping is in BAZ's mature style. The Viola Sonata is just behind these. The violin works still exhibit three movements- I believe the Concerto is the expansion of the violin and piano Sonata. I guess the Solo Sonata is entirely new? Technically, the ECM Bach/Zimmermann disc would be the way to get all three solo Sonatas, as the options seem quite rare.


The early stuff just doesn't do all that much for me. BAZ's only mature Solo Piano work is the short 'Configurations'. The rest of his output, available on NEOS and Koch, is all early, and not of interest to me;- I'm not sure you'd call them masterpieces,- Blacher, Henze, early Schnittke poly??

The two works for Piano Dup are mature and outstanding, and are available with the Piano Trio 'Presence', and the Cello Sonata with Piano 'Intercommunicazione' on the DG disc. And that's it for his Chamber Music. It's not much. Nono seems like Telemann by comparison!

[bhodges]

You might want to investigate Zimmermann's Trumpet Concerto in C, Nobody Knows De Trouble I See (1954). It's on the 6th volume of the Concertgebouw Orchestra's live recordings (the one I've heard), but is also available on this interesting-looking disc by Alison Balsom Seraph (which I haven't heard). The piece is an intriguing mix of the American spiritual and densely scored jazz orchestra - well worth hearing if you like the composer.

[asin]B0063J80TK[/asin]

--Bruce

[snyprrr]

You might want to investigate Zimmermann's Trumpet Concerto in C, Nobody Knows De Trouble I See (1954). It's on the 6th volume of the Concertgebouw Orchestra's live recordings (the one I've heard), but is also available on this interesting-looking disc by Alison Balsom Seraph (which I haven't heard). The piece is an intriguing mix of the American spiritual and densely scored jazz orchestra - well worth hearing if you like the composer.

[asin]B0063J80TK[/asin]

--Bruce

I've had the Philips disc which has both cello concertos, the oboe, and the trumpet works; and the Zender/CPO disc. WHO WOULD YOU RECOMMEND in the Sinfonie, or 'Photoptosis'? (I have Zender in the later, but some say it's the least of the four available).


Just ordered the RCA disc and the Cybele 'Requiem...'.


I am now broke! one penny I picked off the ground...

[bhodges]

I've had the Philips disc which has both cello concertos, the oboe, and the trumpet works; and the Zender/CPO disc. WHO WOULD YOU RECOMMEND in the Sinfonie, or 'Photoptosis'? (I have Zender in the later, but some say it's the least of the four available).

Alas, I do not know either piece, so someone else will have to weigh in.

(But sounds like you could use the opportunity to save money, anyway!)

--Bruce

[chadfeldheimer]

I've had the Philips disc which has both cello concertos, the oboe, and the trumpet works; and the Zender/CPO disc. WHO WOULD YOU RECOMMEND in the Sinfonie, or 'Photoptosis'? (I have Zender in the later, but some say it's the least of the four available).

I love the Philips disc with the concertos. Gielen is my favorite Zimmermann conductor. As for "Photoltosis" I like the Zender recording quite a lot. I have another recording with Bernhard Kontarsky conducting and I could not say which one of both is my favorite.

[mjwal]

I love the Philips disc with the concertos. Gielen is my favorite Zimmermann conductor. As for "Photoltosis" I like the Zender recording quite a lot. I have another recording with Bernhard Kontarsky conducting and I could not say which one of both is my favorite.

To be precise: there are two recordings by Zender, of which the first (I believe, ever) was with the Berlin RSO, a digitalisation of a Wergo LP (1972) which I found online but now seems to have disappeared. The second is of course the available CD with Saarbrücken (live 1973). The latter is only slightly more transparent, they both stress (to my ears) the freaky modern free jazz elements, the Berliners are a better band but some things are there in the later recording which come out a bit more clearly; both blow your mind. The sound stage is very well managed so that a differentiated sense of space, rhythm and colour is achieved. In contrast, the Kontarsky is for me a complete dud: everything is flat, there is no hallucinatory exposure of different melodic or rhythmic strands, it's all equalized like some kind of computer graph - what price modern recording techniques, I ask, when the Zender versions are both analogue, the first having been (excellently - I have the LP, my first experience of Zimmermann) transferred from an LP source? The Oramo BPO is different again, with a deeper bass (2009 live), less foregrounding of the free jazz elements but all in all an absorbing and transformative performance - if you can still find it online. Junk the Kontarsky - a distinct no-no. - I haven't heard a more recent recording by Steffens on Capriccio.

[snyprrr]

To be precise: there are two recordings by Zender, of which the first (I believe, ever) was with the Berlin RSO, a digitalisation of a Wergo LP (1972) which I found online but now seems to have disappeared. The second is of course the available CD with Saarbrücken (live 1973). The latter is only slightly more transparent, they both stress (to my ears) the freaky modern free jazz elements, the Berliners are a better band but some things are there in the later recording which come out a bit more clearly; both blow your mind. The sound stage is very well managed so that a differentiated sense of space, rhythm and colour is achieved. In contrast, the Kontarsky is for me a complete dud: everything is flat, there is no hallucinatory exposure of different melodic or rhythmic strands, it's all equalized like some kind of computer graph - what price modern recording techniques, I ask, when the Zender versions are both analogue, the first having been (excellently - I have the LP, my first experience of Zimmermann) transferred from an LP source? The Oramo BPO is different again, with a deeper bass (2009 live), less foregrounding of the free jazz elements but all in all an absorbing and transformative performance - if you can still find it online. Junk the Kontarsky - a distinct no-no. - I haven't heard a more recent recording by Steffens on Capriccio.

Which is the one with Gubaidulina and Rihm... is that also ColLegno?

Anyhow, thanks for that breakdown.



I got the Cybele 'Requiem...' very crisp and clean...


the RCA disc: I liked Zender's 'Antiphon' better... the RCA seems a little more obtuse?

[snyprrr]

To be precise: there are two recordings by Zender, of which the first (I believe, ever) was with the Berlin RSO, a digitalisation of a Wergo LP (1972) which I found online but now seems to have disappeared. The second is of course the available CD with Saarbrücken (live 1973). The latter is only slightly more transparent, they both stress (to my ears) the freaky modern free jazz elements, the Berliners are a better band but some things are there in the later recording which come out a bit more clearly; both blow your mind. The sound stage is very well managed so that a differentiated sense of space, rhythm and colour is achieved. In contrast, the Kontarsky is for me a complete dud: everything is flat, there is no hallucinatory exposure of different melodic or rhythmic strands, it's all equalized like some kind of computer graph - what price modern recording techniques, I ask, when the Zender versions are both analogue, the first having been (excellently - I have the LP, my first experience of Zimmermann) transferred from an LP source? The Oramo BPO is different again, with a deeper bass (2009 live), less foregrounding of the free jazz elements but all in all an absorbing and transformative performance - if you can still find it online. Junk the Kontarsky - a distinct no-no. - I haven't heard a more recent recording by Steffens on Capriccio.

Is the Kontarsky Cello Concerto ALSO NOT UP TO SNUFF? (whoops)

[mjwal]

Is the Kontarsky Cello Concerto ALSO NOT UP TO SNUFF? (whoops)

I see that in answering a message I did not make quite clear that I was referring to Photoptosis when making comparisons, but I guess you understood that. As to the cello concerto, I must confess I only know the 2 Zender/Palm recordings on Wergo and cpo; I must try to find the Gielen, which I probably missed at a time when my funds were limited (as they still are, but WTH). When re-listening to the Kontarsky Photoptosis I understood my tepid reaction to his recording of Die Soldaten (after one listen) - I have since acquired a DVD of some German festival performance (presently residing elsewhere, hence no details) which I find preferable, if not as overwhelming as Gielen at the Frankfurt opera all those years ago.
Another (late) work that intrigues and moves me is Stille und Umkehr (1970), a kind of testament. Both recordings I have, Gierster and Metzmacher, are live and thus disturbed by audience noise, the latter being more suggestive  (and less affected by coughs etc) to my ears. I don't know that Steffens CD including both this, Photoptosis, the Sinfonie in einem Satz and Alagoana - should I? - Is there an alternative to the DG Présence trio? I love that. Ah, just noticed there's one on Wergo - recommendable?

[snyprrr]

I see that in answering a message I did not make quite clear that I was referring to Photoptosis when making comparisons, but I guess you understood that. As to the cello concerto, I must confess I only know the 2 Zender/Palm recordings on Wergo and cpo; I must try to find the Gielen, which I probably missed at a time when my funds were limited (as they still are, but WTH). When re-listening to the Kontarsky Photoptosis I understood my tepid reaction to his recording of Die Soldaten (after one listen) - I have since acquired a DVD of some German festival performance (presently residing elsewhere, hence no details) which I find preferable, if not as overwhelming as Gielen at the Frankfurt opera all those years ago.
Another (late) work that intrigues and moves me is Stille und Umkehr (1970), a kind of testament. Both recordings I have, Gierster and Metzmacher, are live and thus disturbed by audience noise, the latter being more suggestive  (and less affected by coughs etc) to my ears. I don't know that Steffens CD including both this, Photoptosis, the Sinfonie in einem Satz and Alagoana - should I? - Is there an alternative to the DG Présence trio? I love that. Ah, just noticed there's one on Wergo - recommendable?

1) Ah, my mistake. It's not Kontarsky in the Cello Cto., but, yes, the 2nd Zender recording (on Wergo). So, my question,... oy, now I'm confused,... how is the Wergo Cello Cto.? That is with Palm/Zender just like the CPO... I have the CPO and Philips... I was hoping to  be able to dismiss the Wergo with a good (bad) word from you.

2) That Capriccio disc surely is intriguing as it has the Top3 pieces we want to hear. 'Photoptosis' is much longer hear, so, at least, it is a compare to the others. And yes, I enjoy the 'Stille...' also. If you like BAZ, check out also York Holler resounding with a lot of his teacher's principles.

3) 'Presence' - I really enjoyed the RCA, Ensemble Moderne, performance after having the Kontarskys forever. The RCA really brings out the allusions more for me, and the quotes are played more old-timey, contrasting sharply with the "modern" music.

4) Thankfully, I have only heard the Kontarsky 'Soldaten', so I was properly bowled over as it is. What's the biggest criticism of the Teldec? The sound surely allows for so much to be heard.

5) Gielen poo-pooed one of his BAZ recordings, can't remember if 'Soldaten' or 'Requiem...'...

[mjwal]

1) Ah, my mistake. It's not Kontarsky in the Cello Cto., but, yes, the 2nd Zender recording (on Wergo). So, my question,... oy, now I'm confused,... how is the Wergo Cello Cto.? That is with Palm/Zender just like the CPO... I have the CPO and Philips... I was hoping to  be able to dismiss the Wergo with a good (bad) word from you.

2) That Capriccio disc surely is intriguing as it has the Top3 pieces we want to hear. 'Photoptosis' is much longer hear, so, at least, it is a compare to the others. And yes, I enjoy the 'Stille...' also. If you like BAZ, check out also York Holler resounding with a lot of his teacher's principles.

3) 'Presence' - I really enjoyed the RCA, Ensemble Moderne, performance after having the Kontarskys forever. The RCA really brings out the allusions more for me, and the quotes are played more old-timey, contrasting sharply with the "modern" music.

4) Thankfully, I have only heard the Kontarsky 'Soldaten', so I was properly bowled over as it is. What's the biggest criticism of the Teldec? The sound surely allows for so much to be heard.

5) Gielen poo-pooed one of his BAZ recordings, can't remember if 'Soldaten' or 'Requiem...'...

to 5) I'm sure it was the Soldaten, which was the mono recording of a chaotic premiere, I believe.

to 4) So much is heard, so little means - to my ears.

to 3) I'll definitely look out for the RCA.

to 2) I've been a qualified Höller fan for decades - Mythos & all those early things. Schwarze Halbinseln (which I've only got on LP).. Then Daydreams and Pensées, which really grab me. I'm unsure about Meister und Margarita -I saw the premiere production in Cologne and was not blown away. Listening to the CDs, I get the impression of a rather uninvolving super-involved modernity spoiling the moments of inspiration. It's probably just me. And I don't really go for Der Ewige Tag either. Don't know the most recent stuff.

to 1) The Wergo cello concerto is great - I have it as an LP and a digitalised file.
Update on Stille und Umkehr: I just found (on my hard disc) a file of Zender conducting this with the RSO Frankfurt: top marks all round. Update on Photoptosis: I just found another file of Bour conducting this - ditto. Amazing what you can find on the net, eh?

[not edward]

a digitalisation of a Wergo LP (1972) which I found online but now seems to have disappeared

I'll PM you about this.

I haven't heard a more recent recording by Steffens on Capriccio.

Do hear it. It's a very different view of the piece, much slower, darker and relentless my favourite recording of Photoptosis by some way.

[snyprrr]

I'll PM you about this.
Do hear it. It's a very different view of the piece, much slower, darker and relentless my favourite recording of Photoptosis by some way.

Yes, the sample for Steffen's 'Phototopsis' did exactly indicate a slower, more magma-like reading... 12mins. normally vs. @16mins. here...

[not edward]

I'm not sure if it's even been released as a physical disc in North America, but I recently bought a digital version of the most recent disc in Wergo's Zimmermann series.



The meat of the program can be found in two works: the first ever recording of the original version of the Sinfonie in einem Satz (complete with some thoroughly over-the-top orchestration, including a prominent part for organ, that was made much less rambunctuous in the revised version), and the first easily-acquired CD recording of the collage piece Musique pour les soupers de Roi Ubu. Thankfully it's performed here without the rather tiresome narration that marred it for me in the Col Legno Metz Festival box set.

I probably won't spent too much time with this disc, though. The longer I know it, the more disturbing Zimmermann's music seems to me.

[Crudblud]

You might want to investigate Zimmermann's Trumpet Concerto in C, Nobody Knows De Trouble I See (1954). It's on the 6th volume of the Concertgebouw Orchestra's live recordings (the one I've heard), but is also available on this interesting-looking disc by Alison Balsom Seraph (which I haven't heard). The piece is an intriguing mix of the American spiritual and densely scored jazz orchestra - well worth hearing if you like the composer.

[asin]B0063J80TK[/asin]

--Bruce

One of my favourites from Zimmermann. Balsom doesn't play to the jazz elements of the piece very well in my opinion, and Zimmermann's humour is lost to some extent because it's all a little bit too austere. My own preferred recording is that of Reinhold Friedrich with the Frankfurt Radio Symphony Orchestra under Dmitrij Kitajenko, it has more of a spontaneous, spiky feel to it while maintaining a sense of tightness and order, which I think is one of the keys to effectively showing off what Zimmermann is trying to do by placing jazz in a modern, European orchestral setting. It's a wonderful piece in any case, though I'm not familiar with the Concertgebouw version you mentioned.

[Mirror Image]

I've been meaning to get more into Zimmermann, but other musical interests always get in the way. I heard his Symphonie many months ago and recall enjoying it. Those Capriccio and Wergo recordings are on my wishlist now.

[chadfeldheimer]

I'm not sure if it's even been released as a physical disc in North America, but I recently bought a digital version of the most recent disc in Wergo's Zimmermann series.



The meat of the program can be found in two works: the first ever recording of the original version of the Sinfonie in einem Satz (complete with some thoroughly over-the-top orchestration, including a prominent part for organ, that was made much less rambunctuous in the revised version), and the first easily-acquired CD recording of the collage piece Musique pour les soupers de Roi Ubu. Thankfully it's performed here without the rather tiresome narration that marred it for me in the Col Legno Metz Festival box set.

I probably won't spent too much time with this disc, though. The longer I know it, the more disturbing Zimmermann's music seems to me.

That sounds pretty interesting. I'm also thinking about purchasing this disc. What about the performance? Can you recommend the disc in that regard?

[Mirror Image]

That sounds pretty interesting. I'm also thinking about purchasing this disc. What about the performance? Can you recommend the disc in that regard?

I bought that recording earlier today. I'll certainly let you know once I received it and heard it if Edward doesn't.