Morton Feldman (1926-1987)

Started by bhodges, March 12, 2008, 10:57:40 AM

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Mirror Image

Quote from: San Antone on February 25, 2020, 08:50:15 AM
Feldman stated that in his later works he became interested in longer durations because of the effect on a person's senses who engaged in a listening experience for long periods.  According to Feldman, a physiological change occurs.

That certainly makes sense and there's a lot of merit in those longer pieces, I just don't think I could do the 6 hr. String Quartet No. 2. However, I could divide the music up into listening sessions as I don't think these longer works were intended to be listened to in one setting anyway or, at least, I'm certainly not going to do that.

San Antone

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 25, 2020, 08:54:28 AM
That certainly makes sense and there's a lot of merit in those longer pieces, I just don't think I could do the 6 hr. String Quartet No. 2. However, I could divide the music up into listening sessions as I don't think these longer works were intended to be listened to in one setting anyway or, at least, I'm certainly not going to do that.

I don't agree with you here.  Judging from the comment I referenced above, it seems pretty clear to me that Feldman did intend for them to be listened to in one sitting. Otherwise, the physiological change he contemplated would not occur.

But I don't know how many people actually do that.  I haven't done it yet.

Mirror Image

Quote from: San Antone on February 25, 2020, 09:01:55 AM
I don't agree with you here.  Judging from the comment I referenced above, it seems pretty clear to me that Feldman did intend for them to be listened to in one sitting. Otherwise, the physiological change he contemplated would not occur.

But I don't know how many people actually do that.  I haven't done it yet.

I never refuted any of your points just merely pointing out that I can't sit through those long pieces in one setting. I love the Feldman aesthetic, but I couldn't embrace it for a three hour long session with no breaks.

petrarch

Quote from: Mandryka on February 25, 2020, 08:53:29 AM
Has anyone here ever had an interesting altered state of mind while listening to a piece of music by Feldman? A halucination maybe? A little vision of the eternity?

Hallucinatory no, but altered, definitely. I went to his 2nd String Quartet at Carnegie Hall, performed by the Flux Quartet, and I didn't feel time passing at all. The stage was set up with rugs and the audience was invited to change seats or even sit or lie down on stage next to the performers.
//p
The music collection.
The hi-fi system: Esoteric X-03SE -> Pathos Logos -> Analysis Audio Amphitryon.
A view of the whole

petrarch

Quote from: petrarch on February 25, 2020, 09:30:54 AM
Hallucinatory no, but altered, definitely. I went to his 2nd String Quartet at Carnegie Hall, performed by the Flux Quartet, and I didn't feel time passing at all. The stage was set up with rugs and the audience was invited to change seats whenever they felt like it or even sit or lie down on stage next to the performers.
//p
The music collection.
The hi-fi system: Esoteric X-03SE -> Pathos Logos -> Analysis Audio Amphitryon.
A view of the whole

Karl Henning

Quote from: petrarch on February 25, 2020, 09:30:54 AM
Hallucinatory no, but altered, definitely. I went to his 2nd String Quartet at Carnegie Hall, performed by the Flux Quartet, and I didn't feel time passing at all. The stage was set up with rugs and the audience was invited to change seats or even sit or lie down on stage next to the performers.

Nice!
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Mandryka

#546
Quote from: petrarch on February 25, 2020, 09:30:54 AM
Hallucinatory no, but altered, definitely. I went to his 2nd String Quartet at Carnegie Hall, performed by the Flux Quartet, and I didn't feel time passing at all. The stage was set up with rugs and the audience was invited to change seats or even sit or lie down on stage next to the performers.

So now I wonder whether this was what Feldman was trying to achieve. A sonic experience which will give people the illusion of no time passing. Whether that teleological approach makes sense of these enigmatic late works.

I feel a bit uneasy about the idea of the composer as a magician. Like the music is a magic spell . . . incant it and you see time differently. I wonder if any of the composers who post hear think they have  magic powers.

I mentioned halucinations because I remember reading reviews of some concerts -- I think the second quartet -- where the journalist talked about having halicinations. A friend thought it was bullshit, just something the journalist said for effect in the article. But me, I'm not so sure . . .  four - six hours is a long time.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

San Antone

Quote from: petrarch on February 25, 2020, 09:30:54 AM
Hallucinatory no, but altered, definitely. I went to his 2nd String Quartet at Carnegie Hall, performed by the Flux Quartet, and I didn't feel time passing at all. The stage was set up with rugs and the audience was invited to change seats or even sit or lie down on stage next to the performers.

The thought came to me that listening to one of Feldman's long works would be much more possible at a live concert.  But I would struggle with a recording.  Cage was also into this idea, and I would guess any composer who conceives of long works has some idea related to the sensory experience for listeners sitting with the music for long periods.

T. D.

#548
I purchased the California Ear Unit (Bridge) recording of For Philip Guston shortly after it was released.
Wound up selling it because I wasn't likely to listen sufficiently often. (Also, the Bridge recording had very bright sonics, and I prefer the drier sound on Euro labels like Hat Art, Etcetera, etc. But duration was the major issue.)
However, I strongly kicked myself in the a*s last summer because I blew a chance to hear a live performance of FPG - at a semi-local art gallery, but I didn't keep up to date on announcements. The performance was simultaneous with the opening of a Guston exhibit. I truly regret missing that. Ironically, I'm not overly fond of Guston's art (even strongly dislike some periods), but still...
Live performances of the long works (subject to comfortable seating  :P ) appeal to me, but for recordings 2 CDs is about my limit in one sitting.

petrarch

Quote from: San Antone on February 25, 2020, 10:55:19 AM
The thought came to me that listening to one of Feldman's long works would be much more possible at a live concert.  But I would struggle with a recording.  Cage was also into this idea, and I would guess any composer who conceives of long works has some idea related to the sensory experience for listeners sitting with the music for long periods.

There are some recordings that I found similarly remarkable and memorable--one of which was Stockhausen's Hymnen, that I had to listen to twice in a row the first time I got my hands on it, despite its 2-hour duration. It probably helps that the Stockhausen is by definition a fixed medium work (spatialization limitations notwithstanding when compared to the 'concert' version), whereas the Feldman has real live musicians right there with you, physically producing (and, in a sense, reacting) to the music.

The transcendence of form into scale in Feldman (to paraphrase him, when durations shift from about 60 minutes to 90+) I find thoroughly fascinating and made me seek out, explore and enjoy long, single-movement works.
//p
The music collection.
The hi-fi system: Esoteric X-03SE -> Pathos Logos -> Analysis Audio Amphitryon.
A view of the whole

Mandryka

#550
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 25, 2020, 08:06:26 AM
I think he took a rather Wagnerian approach to durations towards the end of his life.

I think this is a really perceptive point and merits some serious consideration. The thing you have in Wagner is that out of a few simple short ideas, leitmotifs, you can develop opeas lasting 12 hours and more. And yes, in late Feldman, out of a handful of simple short ideas, you have a quartet lasting 6 hours.

Furthermore, if the discussion above is going in a sensible direction, for late Feldman the mystical, the spiritual, was an important raison d'etre of his music. Same for the Wagner of Parsifal of course.



Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mirror Image

#551
Quote from: Mandryka on February 26, 2020, 12:14:11 AM
I think this is a really perceptive point and merits some serious consideration. The thing you have in Wagner is that out of a few simple short ideas, leitmotifs, you can develop opeas lasting 12 hours and more. And yes, in late Feldman, out of a handful of simple short ideas, you have a quartet lasting 6 hours.

Furthermore, if the discussion above is going in a sensible direction, for late Feldman the mystical, the spiritual, was an important raison d'etre of his music. Same for the Wagner of Parsifal of course.

Well, to be fair, a work like Bass Clarinet and Percussion is short for a later period Feldman work --- it lasts around 17 minutes and I'm sure there are other examples.

Speaking of Bass Clarinet and Percussion, do check out this great video:

https://www.youtube.com/v/emeDjNSxsCs

I wonder if our Karl knows Samuel Andreyev? I bet they would have some interesting musical conversations. :)

vers la flamme

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 26, 2020, 08:57:26 AM
Well, to be fair, a work like Bass Clarinet and Percussion is short for a later period Feldman work --- it lasts around 17 minutes and I'm sure there are other examples.

Speaking of Bass Clarinet and Percussion, do check out this great video:

https://www.youtube.com/v/emeDjNSxsCs

I wonder if our Karl knows Samuel Andreyev? I bet they would have some interesting musical conversations. :)

This video was helpful when I was first getting into Feldman a few months ago, it's a well thought-out analysis. Andreyev is a total geek, but he definitely knows his music. I'd love to talk music with him sometime though I'm sure the conversation would quickly go over my head.

Mirror Image

#553
Quote from: vers la flamme on February 26, 2020, 03:13:44 PM
This video was helpful when I was first getting into Feldman a few months ago, it's a well thought-out analysis. Andreyev is a total geek, but he definitely knows his music. I'd love to talk music with him sometime though I'm sure the conversation would quickly go over my head.

You say geek as if it's a bad thing. What helped me the most in getting into Feldman was reading his own essays on music and reading interviews with him.

Some good interviews:

http://thomasmoore.info/interview-morton-feldman/

https://www.cnvill.net/mforton.htm

A good article from Alex Ross:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/06/19/american-sublime

Mandryka

Quote from: amw on February 24, 2020, 11:11:46 PM
My most recent Feldman acquisition, which I've listened to with pleasure, is this one:



These pieces come from my favourite of Feldman's two or three "artistic periods"—just after the graphic scores, but before he got into the 1 hour+ pieces of his last decade and a half. The playing is slower than on other recordings I have of these works. The articulation of each note or chord is pellucid and rounded, as though playing a Bach invention; virtually every John Tilbury recording at this stage is a masterclass in piano technique. Simon Reynell as always delivers top quality sound engineering. Also, some might disagree but I find the narrow cardboard slipcases very cute.

I can't get on with this one at all, whether it's my response to the performances or the music, I can't say.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

vers la flamme

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 26, 2020, 04:14:48 PM
You say geek as if it's a bad thing. What helped me the most in getting into Feldman was reading his own essays on music and reading interviews with him.

Some good interviews:

http://thomasmoore.info/interview-morton-feldman/

https://www.cnvill.net/mforton.htm

A good article from Alex Ross:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/06/19/american-sublime

No, not a bad thing by any means, but it's true! Just look at the guy!  ;D

Anyway, I'll check out these links. I listened to a dialogue between Feldman and John Cage, on Youtube, on my way to work yesterday. It was pretty interesting. Showcases the differences in their personalities pretty well.

Mirror Image

Quote from: vers la flamme on February 27, 2020, 03:44:11 AM
No, not a bad thing by any means, but it's true! Just look at the guy!  ;D

Anyway, I'll check out these links. I listened to a dialogue between Feldman and John Cage, on Youtube, on my way to work yesterday. It was pretty interesting. Showcases the differences in their personalities pretty well.

I've been reading Give My Regards To Eighth Street and really enjoying Feldman's commentary throughout. He was a man full of contradictions, but it's a fascinating read to say the least.

vers la flamme

Quote from: Mirror Image on February 27, 2020, 06:38:28 PM
I've been reading Give My Regards To Eighth Street and really enjoying Feldman's commentary throughout. He was a man full of contradictions, but it's a fascinating read to say the least.

Definitely looks like a must-read, especially once I get to exploring more of his music. I will be looking out for it. Glad you have been enjoying it.

JBS

The outgoing issue of BBC Music magazine (January 2020, the most recent one to show up at Barnes and Noble's magazine section here in the US*) has a 3 page feature on Feldman.

*I don't know where else it might be available in the US for physical purchase.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Mirror Image

Quote from: JBS on February 29, 2020, 07:06:30 PM
The outgoing issue of BBC Music magazine (January 2020, the most recent one to show up at Barnes and Noble's magazine section here in the US*) has a 3 page feature on Feldman.

*I don't know where else it might be available in the US for physical purchase.

Nice! I'll look into this. Thanks for the info, Jeffrey.