Morton Feldman (1926-1987)

[Artem]

Feldman on Another Timbre has been a disappointment for me. My favourite Feldman was recorded on HatHut, Wergo and ECM.

[vers la flamme]

Feldman on Another Timbre has been a disappointment for me. My favourite Feldman was recorded on HatHut, Wergo and ECM.

What did you not like about the Another Timbre recordings?

[Mandryka]

Feldman on Another Timbre has been a disappointment for me. My favourite Feldman was recorded on HatHut, Wergo and ECM.

I was slightly tempted to buy this because it's a great favourite of mine -- I collect recordings of Piano Violin Viola Cello

[vers la flamme]

I was slightly tempted to buy this because it's a great favourite of mine -- I collect recordings of Piano Violin Viola Cello

Didn't you write somewhere else recently about how horribly bleak and depressing PVVC was? You doing OK?

[milk]

I was slightly tempted to buy this because it's a great favourite of mine -- I collect recordings of Piano Violin Viola Cello

Which is this?
Recently I've been listening to all the stuff on HAT. Generally, I like the way these recordings sound.

[Mandryka]

Didn't you write somewhere else recently about how horribly bleak and depressing PVVC was? You doing OK?

No. For Samuel Beckett is horribly bleak. Piano etc transcends that with a vision of the primal void.

All things are the primal void,
Which is nor born or destroyed;
Nor is it stained or pure,
Nor does it wax or wane.
So, in emptiness, no form,
No feeling, thought, or choice,
Nor is there consciousness.
No eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind;
No colour, sound, smell, taste, touch,
Or what the mind takes hold of,
Nor even act of sensing.
No ignorance or end of it,
Nor all that comes of ignorance;

Which is this?
Recently I've been listening to all the stuff on HAT. Generally, I like the way these recordings sound.

http://www.anothertimbre.com/feldmanpvvc.html

[vers la flamme]

@Mandryka:

This is just sooooooooo depressing, I mean piano, violin, Viola and cello. He must have been unbelievably down in the dumps, Tilbury knows what he wanted if anyone does I guess. Unbearable music, excruciatingly bleak, torture. Somehow the quietness of it makes it even more painful than For Samuel Becket. It feels like one of those EST seminars designed to break you down, but then it doesn't build you up again.

What did Feldman know, what secret of the universe had he glimpsed, which prompted such hopelessness?

Though to be fair that post was a year and a half ago now! I must have just seen it recently while reading old posts in this thread.

Anyway... your mention of the primal void intrigues me. I went ahead and bought the Hat Hut recording on mp3 for $2. Going to listen to it and see what I think.

[Mandryka]

@Mandryka:

Though to be fair that post was a year and a half ago now! I must have just seen it recently while reading old posts in this thread.

Anyway... your mention of the primal void intrigues me. I went ahead and bought the Hat Hut recording on mp3 for $2. Going to listen to it and see what I think.

Ha, the comment about EST still strikes me as pertinent.

[vers la flamme]

Ha, the comment about EST still strikes me as pertinent.

Not sure what you meant by that, though as an American the only thing EST ever meant to me is the time zone I live in.

[Mandryka]

Not sure what you meant by that, though as an American the only thing EST ever meant to me is the time zone I live in.

Ah, so kids of your generation don't know about EST. I only had an indirect experience of an EST seminar (if this were "real life" and not the internet I'd tell you the story) They were dangerous, IMO, though others may disagree. They certainly effected the participants "deeply"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Seminars_Training

The seminars were long and gruelling -- hence the relationship to Feldman long form

Sessions lasted from 9:00 a.m. to midnight or the early hours of the morning, with one meal break.[12] Participants had to hand over wristwatches and were not allowed to take notes, or to speak unless called upon, in which case they waited for a microphone to be brought to them.[13][page needed] The second day of the workshop featured the "danger process".[13]:384 As a way of observing and confronting their own perspective and point of view,[1] groups of participants were brought onto the stage and confronted. They were asked to "imagine that they were afraid of everyone else and then that everyone else was afraid of them"[13]:384 and to re-examine their reflex patterns of living that kept their lives from working.[14] This was followed by interactions on the third and fourth days, covering topics such as reality and the nature of the mind, looking at the possibility that "what is, is and what ain't, ain't," and that "true enlightenment is knowing you are a machine"[13]:384 and culminating in a realization that people do not need to be stuck with their automatic ways of being but can instead be free to choose their ways of being in how they live their lives.[1] Participants were told they were perfect the way they were and were asked to indicate by a show of hands if they "had gotten it".[13][page needed]

Eliezer Sobel said in his article "This is It: est, 20 Years Later":[15]

    I considered the training to be a brilliantly conceived Zen koan, effectively tricking the mind into seeing itself, and in thus seeing, to be simultaneously aware of who was doing the seeing, a transcendent level of consciousness, a place spacious and undefined, distinct from the tired old story that our minds continuously tell us about who we are, and with which we ordinarily identify.

[vers la flamme]

Ah, so kids of your generation don't know about EST. I only had an indirect experience of an EST seminar (if this were "real life" and not the internet I'd tell you the story) They were dangerous, IMO, though others may disagree. They certainly effected the participants "deeply"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Seminars_Training

The seminars were long and gruelling -- hence the relationship to Feldman long form

Good grief. Sounds like pure torture. I have some research to do now.

[milk]

Good grief. Sounds like pure torture. I have some research to do now.

I know it because it's a joke in a Woody Allen movie though I can't remember which one or the joke itself.

[vers la flamme]

A question for those of us here who know Feldman's music far more than I do: Is there a categorical difference or a distinction between Feldman's works with the ultra-utilitarian titles—Piano Violin Viola Cello; Piano & String Quartet; Bass Clarinet & Percussion etc—and those whose titles are dedications—For Bunita Marcus; For Samuel Beckett; Rothko Chapel; For Philip Guston etc...? Or do we hear the same kinds of things in one that we would hear in the other, and it only depends on a piece-by-piece basis...?

[Mandryka]

A question for those of us here who know Feldman's music far more than I do: Is there a categorical difference or a distinction between Feldman's works with the ultra-utilitarian titles—Piano Violin Viola Cello; Piano & String Quartet; Bass Clarinet & Percussion etc—and those whose titles are dedications—For Bunita Marcus; For Samuel Beckett; Rothko Chapel; For Philip Guston etc...? Or do we hear the same kinds of things in one that we would hear in the other, and it only depends on a piece-by-piece basis...?

No the titles aren't don't think you can draw any conclusions along those likes from the title. For example, For Christian Wolf is based on a pattern of notes which he found in Wolff's early Duo for Two Violins, and so is String Quartet II.

[vers la flamme]

Cross posting from the "What are you listening 2 now?" thread...:

Morton Feldman: Rothko Chapel, Why Patterns? Soloists + UC Berkeley Chamber Chorus under Philip Brett; California EAR Unit. On the New Albion label. I have listened to this CD in its entirety about 5 times in the past two weeks. It's absolutely captivating music. I have three other Feldman recordings in my library, but they are all long, late works, which I don't yet connect with in the same way that I do with these two masterpieces. I have been enjoying the different "Regions" of Crippled Symmetry recently on an individual basis, but I know this is not the right way to appreciate this work. Sometime soon I will block off a full hour and a half to listen to the whole thing.

As I wrote there, I have been somewhat struggling to connect with later Feldman, but I find his middle period works absolutely fascinating. Maybe someone can help me out with this, what are some good recordings of '70s (and '60s) Feldman works that are not to be missed? I just ordered a used copy of this:



... for cheap, and though I expect this recording of the Rothko Chapel will not supersede the New Albion as a favorite, it will be interesting to hear an alternate interpretation. But the real reason I got it was For Frank O'Hara, which appears to be a work from around the same time in a similar vein.

What else? I have been looking at a disc on CPO with Hans Zender conducting the "concertante" works, Oboe & Orchestra, Piano & Orchestra etc. Does anyone have it?

[T. D.]

...
What else? I have been looking at a disc on CPO with Hans Zender conducting the "concertante" works, Oboe & Orchestra, Piano & Orchestra etc. Does anyone have it?

Yes, that's the first Feldman recording I bought, probably around 1997. I think it's pretty good, an attractive program, and worth hearing. It was recorded  (correction: 1 piece is live; not sure about the others, but the dates range from 1973 to 1978 and I think one is a premiere), before the big boom in Feldman recordings. IMO the sonics and performances are not up to the very highest standards set by later projects, but they're not bad, and I'm not aware of any other recordings of "Oboe and Orchestra" and "Flute and Orchestra" (could be wrong on this, though).

[vers la flamme]

Yes, that's the first Feldman recording I bought, probably around 1997. I think it's pretty good, an attractive program, and worth hearing. It was recorded  (correction: 1 piece is live; not sure about the others, but the dates range from 1973 to 1978 and I think one is a premiere), before the big boom in Feldman recordings. IMO the sonics and performances are not up to the very highest standards set by later projects, but they're not bad, and I'm not aware of any other recordings of "Oboe and Orchestra" and "Flute and Orchestra" (could be wrong on this, though).

Really, that old? Did CPO license it from another label that released it previously?

[T. D.]

Really, that old? Did CPO license it from another label that released it previously?

The set was Vol. 11 of CPO's budget-priced "Hans Zender [recently deceased] Edition", mostly contemporary music with some earlier composers (e.g. Mahler). The releases I own from that series have recording dates of similar vintage and bear the Saarländischer Rundfunk logo. Documentation is skimpy. Perhaps a joint project with Zender and the Rundfunk-Sinfonieorchester Saarbrücken?

[Artem]

What else? I have been looking at a disc on CPO with Hans Zender conducting the "concertante" works, Oboe & Orchestra, Piano & Orchestra etc. Does anyone have it?

I think you may like "The Viola in My Life" disk on ECM. The pieces are from 1970-1971.

As for the question above on Another Timbre, I found that specific disk lacking in terms of players' emotional approach to music. It felt like very well rehearsed playing, but so distant and separated from the music that they play. It feels odd to me.

[T. D.]

I think this one is cool for "historical reasons" (since reissued on New World):

Original recordings of all 3 pieces. Feldman conducts the first two and plays piano on the third.
Karen Phillips, for whom The Viola in My Life was written, plays it (and David Tudor is on piano). But only the first 3 movements; the fourth was written after the 1970 recording date! Paul Jacobs is one of the pianists on False Relationships... Eberhard Blum, who later recorded many more Feldman works, plays flute on Why Patterns?.
But the sonics are not as clean as you'll find on more modern releases.