Morton Feldman (1926-1987)

Started by bhodges, March 12, 2008, 10:57:40 AM

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Mandryka

Quote from: vers la flamme on April 20, 2020, 07:44:02 AM
Wow. So this is a re-recording with the same violinist? Or is it merely a reissue?

New recording, made a couple of years ago.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

vers la flamme

Quote from: Mandryka on April 20, 2020, 07:57:38 AM
Dunno. Maybe I'll ask John Tilbury.

This is totally unfair, I shouldn't have said it. I shall buy the new recording as a penance.

Unfair as in you shouldn't have called Tilbury's & Morgan's styles tense? Or unfair as in you don't think they should go together...?

In any case, I want you to let me know what you think. I haven't heard For John Cage.

Mandryka

#622
Quote from: vers la flamme on April 20, 2020, 09:30:23 AM
I haven't heard For John Cage.

It's interesting, he wrote For Christian Wolff, For John Cage and For Philip Guston all in a five year period (I think), all duos, all with their own strong character. There's another outlier duo for violin and piano Spring of Chosroes which is a bit earlier -- For John Cage is maybe similar. There's a tremendous characterful recording of Spring of Chosroes by Zukovsky and Oppens -- presumably they created it.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

vers la flamme

Quote from: Mandryka on April 20, 2020, 11:15:52 AM
It's interesting, he wrote For Christian Wolff, For John Cage and For Philip Guston all in a five year period (I think), all duos, all with their own strong character. There's another outlier duo for violin and piano Spring of Chosroes which is a bit earlier -- For John Cage is maybe similar.

Guston is a trio I believe, same ensemble as Crippled Symmetry & Why Patterns? I don't know much about For Christian Wolff.

Mandryka

Quote from: vers la flamme on April 20, 2020, 11:18:46 AM
Guston is a trio I believe, same ensemble as Crippled Symmetry & Why Patterns? I don't know much about For Christian Wolff.

ah yes.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Jamie

Recently pulled out the Tilbury All Piano box for the first time in several years and was surprised to find, not sure why, his Bunita Marcus, the final cd of that set, wonderful. Tried the first cd of early piano pieces and had to turn it off. Could have been my mood, the material, not sure. 

Mandryka

#626
In the notes for the new (performed 2018) For John Cage, Darragh Morgan says


QuoteI learnt much from my musical encounters with Zukofsky about Feldman's use of mean-tone intonation and the obvious influence of this on the expressivity of his string writing . . . one begin to perceive the richness and variety of colour which is the material of the music.

And that seems true. But why piano? I mean Tilbury's piano does not have the overtone richness of the violin, it doesn't have the colour. He talks of " John Tilbury's immaculate pianistic touch" but I can't help feeling that the contrast between the lovely violin when played with a bow, and the less interesting sound of the piano, 12 pure notes, is a challenge in this music. The plucked violin is quite a different matter of course.

The earlier (2006?) recording that Tilbury and Morgan made is slightly (about 5 minutes) longer, I'd say that the violin is more ethereal, but I'm not sure, both are satisfying. I want to say that I think that there are some very magical ethereal moments in the earlier one. I don't want to suggest that it's better than the latter - just not the same.



The recording engineering is cleaner in the new release, and in music as quiet as this, that matters.


There's another thing that Morgan says in the notes which, I think, should be quoted for truth, viz:

QuoteAlmost all of Feldman's music is slow and soft. Only at first sight is this a limitation. I see it rather as a narrow door, to whose dimensions one has to adapt oneself (as in 'Alice in Wonderland') before one can pass through it into the state of being that is expressed in Feldman's music . . . When one has passed through the narrow door and got accustomed to the dim light, one realises the range of his imagination and the significant differences that distinguish one piece from another...

In my memory, as a listener rather than a performer or an analyst,  the Feldman duos ans trios and solos from the 1980s can feel formulaic. But that's an illusion of memory. In fact, they are all very different. There is a formula, like sonata form is a formula, a formula which is big enough to a accommodate  a big enough range of different music.


Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

milk

I've been trying to listen to the second string quartet by Flux today while I work. I might try it tomorrow again. Obviously this is a huge challenge and there's so much imagination here. I think musically it's a very different world from the other 80's chamber stuff.
I've never tried to listen to it while doing nothing else. But I don't think there's a boring moment anyway and I'm sure I'd like to hear a live performance. I was jealous they did it in NYC a few years ago. This is the kind of piece you need to lock yourself into. And I think it'd help to see what's going on.

Mandryka

#628
Quote from: milk on April 24, 2020, 04:58:33 AM
I've been trying to listen to the second string quartet by Flux today while I work. I might try it tomorrow again. Obviously this is a huge challenge and there's so much imagination here. I think musically it's a very different world from the other 80's chamber stuff.
I've never tried to listen to it while doing nothing else. But I don't think there's a boring moment anyway and I'm sure I'd like to hear a live performance. I was jealous they did it in NYC a few years ago. This is the kind of piece you need to lock yourself into. And I think it'd help to see what's going on.

Recently I've come to the conclusion that it's not a good idea to listen to this type of music while working or doing the hoover or whatever. There was a comment from Darragh Morgan in the new recording with Knoop, where he used a phrase, something like "enter into Feldman's world" -- and that sounds right to me, you have to open up, you have to submit.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

milk

Quote from: Mandryka on April 24, 2020, 06:44:42 AM
Recently I've come to the conclusion that it's not a good idea to listen to this type of music while working or doing the hoover or whatever. There was a comment from Darragh Morgan in the new recording with Knoop, where he used a phrase, something like "enter into Feldman's world" -- and that's sounds right to me, you have to open up, you have to submit.
Yes. You simply can't understand it as background music. When you focus on it, you can really see what's happening. In the background, it doesn't make much sense.
I've been listening to it while putting my son to sleep tonight. There's a magic to this world of sound. I wonder, how did he do it?

vers la flamme

Why is it so easy to get sucked into a rabbit hole with Feldman? I was just going to listen to Why Patterns? & here I am several hours and damn near three full CDs later. (& then weeks will go by where I don't listen to his music much at all).

I think I may be starting to get the bug for his late music. I listened to the first part of Crippled Symmetry and only turned it off after the first disc because I had to go somewhere, it was enrapturing. I'm getting excited to check out stuff like Patterns in a Chromatic Field, For John Cage, & Piano & String Quartet. Anything else I ought to look into? I'm not ready to dive into the multi-hour works yet.

I just got Give My Regards to 8th Street in the mail. I'm going to start it when I finish Death in Venice

milk

Quote from: vers la flamme on April 27, 2020, 03:07:23 PM
Why is it so easy to get sucked into a rabbit hole with Feldman? I was just going to listen to Why Patterns? & here I am several hours and damn near three full CDs later. (& then weeks will go by where I don't listen to his music much at all).

I think I may be starting to get the bug for his late music. I listened to the first part of Crippled Symmetry and only turned it off after the first disc because I had to go somewhere, it was enrapturing. I'm getting excited to check out stuff like Patterns in a Chromatic Field, For John Cage, & Piano & String Quartet. Anything else I ought to look into? I'm not ready to dive into the multi-hour works yet.

I just got Give My Regards to 8th Street in the mail. I'm going to start it when I finish Death in Venice
the late clarinet piece...it's like an hour long...I forget the title exactly. Maybe clarinet and string quartet?

vers la flamme

Quote from: milk on April 27, 2020, 09:43:09 PM
the late clarinet piece...it's like an hour long...I forget the title exactly. Maybe clarinet and string quartet?

I will most definitely check out Clarinet & String Quartet... there is also the much shorter Bass Clarinet & Percussion which I quite like.

I'm listening to Crippled Symmetry:



There's a four-note motif on the flute that dominates the final third of disc 1, track 2 of this recording, repeated must be 50 times or more, that is absolutely mesmerizing: G-sharp, down to A, down to D, up to B. It caught me immediately after the first time it plays, then like I said, it repeats over and over and over again, and when it finally stops, I don't want it to go, and I'm lost in the sea of sound all over again. It made me want to cry. That's a stroke of genius if I ever heard one. The motif seems to represent hope or respite. So beautiful.

Comparing Crippled Symmetry against the much shorter Why Patterns?, for the same ensemble, might provide some interesting insight into Feldman's late style. Nothing about this work tells me, "Why Patterns? x 3"—it's completely different. His comment about "music for scale" rather than form really just clicked with me. In Why Patterns?, we can hear the form. It's concise in a way, despite going on for 30 minutes, and one can almost sense a feeling of development throughout. Crippled Symmetry, by comparison, is sprawling, massive, and almost eternal. There is still movement, this is not music of total stillness, but it is slowed down to such an extent that it's disorienting. 

This must be one of the greatest pieces of chamber music I've ever heard. It's really something special.  :)

vers la flamme



Does anyone have this? It's on Qobuz for $3.99 and I may purchase it, but I'm debating whether I might not get the CD instead, mostly so I can read the booklet.

Mandryka

#634
As far as I can see there is no other way to get a considered commentary of this music other than through CD booklets. I don't have the booklet to that one, I wish I did, the music is worth investigating, the CD contains a magical thing called Bass Clarinet and Percussion.

Oh I forgot, there's this website

http://5against4.com/2012/03/28/morton-feldman-bass-clarinet-and-percussion/
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

petrarch

Quote from: vers la flamme on April 27, 2020, 03:07:23 PM
I just got Give My Regards to 8th Street in the mail. I'm going to start it when I finish Death in Venice

It is very good. That and the collection of interviews and recordings available on YT and in Radio Happenings on Mode are really captivating.

Quote from: vers la flamme on April 28, 2020, 11:11:05 AM


Does anyone have this? It's on Qobuz for $3.99 and I may purchase it, but I'm debating whether I might not get the CD instead, mostly so I can read the booklet.

The booklet has 3.5 pages' worth of text, so not a lot (I didn't check if the English, German and French texts are different). 
//p
The music collection.
The hi-fi system: Esoteric X-03SE -> Pathos Logos -> Analysis Audio Amphitryon.
A view of the whole

vers la flamme

Quote from: petrarch on April 28, 2020, 11:55:40 AM
It is very good. That and the collection of interviews and recordings available on YT and in Radio Happenings on Mode are really captivating.

The booklet has 3.5 pages' worth of text, so not a lot (I didn't check if the English, German and French texts are different).

If you happen to have a scan of it, you'll have definitely made up my mind for me.  ;) Just kidding. I will probably go with the Qobuz in any case, if only because I can't find the CD anywhere except direct from Mode, which wouldn't be cheap.

Mandryka, thanks for the link. I too really enjoy BC&P but I don't have it on CD or in my digital library anywhere.

vers la flamme

Been listening to that Mode clarinet works disc a lot. I'm hooked on Bass Clarinet & Percussion—what a piece. I wish Feldman wrote more percussion oriented works, his writing for this family of instruments is revelatory.

Is there any piece out there that's anything like BC&P? It's nothing like his other works for wind & percussion like Why Patterns? or Crippled Symmetry, great works though they are.

Mandryka

#638
Quote from: vers la flamme on May 02, 2020, 12:13:10 PM


Is there any piece out there that's anything like BC&P?

This maybe. But you'll have to use your imagination a bit because that YouTube is with a lute, there are other recorded versions with different accompaniments, including a percussion instrument - a piano.

https://youtube.com/v/Vf2BQtMQNgs

If you can get access to some streaming platform, you may like this

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mirror Image

Quote from: vers la flamme on May 02, 2020, 12:13:10 PM
Been listening to that Mode clarinet works disc a lot. I'm hooked on Bass Clarinet & Percussion—what a piece. I wish Feldman wrote more percussion oriented works, his writing for this family of instruments is revelatory.

Is there any piece out there that's anything like BC&P? It's nothing like his other works for wind & percussion like Why Patterns? or Crippled Symmetry, great works though they are.

Bass Clarinet & Percussion is a fantastic piece. I tend to prefer the shorter Feldman works. I don't know, I just find them more effective.