Morton Feldman (1926-1987)

Started by bhodges, March 12, 2008, 10:57:40 AM

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not edward

Quote from: milk on August 27, 2014, 08:31:22 PM
I wish I could get the opportunity. Here in Osaka, it just doesn't happen. I was checking out Aki Takahashi's website and noticed she's playing some shows in Japan. What's she playing? Schubert! Schubert?
A shame. I think a Schubert sonata and late Feldman would make a splendid program.
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
-- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

Rinaldo

Quote from: edward on August 27, 2014, 05:03:29 PM
And in some ways that's why I really prefer Feldman live, because you have to engage with the music directly, on its own merits, and--at least for me--it has not disappointed.

I've only had one opportunity to see a Feldman piece performed live. It was For John Cage and for the first half or so, I. was. bored. to. death. I do enjoy Feldman mostly as mood-setting (yes, you could say background.. but of the highest sense) music, yet I was uninvolved, focused on how to sit comfortably and ashamed of myself for 'not getting it', while others seemed to be transfixed by the sparse notation.

And then something clicked: not in the music, in my train of thought. Suddenly I was thinking about the exposed walls of the small church where the concert was held, the masons that put those bricks together, the people who thought about building a church here in the first place, and on and on my mind went, until it went full circle back to the music and I wasn't bored anymore. When I listened to the same piece later at home, I absolutely adored it.

I wonder if I'll have to go through boredom again the next time I catch a Feldman performance.

milk

Quote from: edward on August 28, 2014, 06:10:02 AM
A shame. I think a Schubert sonata and late Feldman would make a splendid program.
I would love the opportunity. I don't see it happening here in Osaka.

amw

Quote from: Rinaldo on September 02, 2014, 02:46:43 AM
I wonder if I'll have to go through boredom again the next time I catch a Feldman performance.

The first piece along those lines I heard live was Cage's 103 and I was increasingly bored and/or uncomfortable for about 45 minutes. Then something changed; 60 minutes in, it started to be really interesting, and by the 75 minute mark I was ready for the music to go on for hours.

I suppose that's something that can happen if you have a short attention span, like me. I was also bored with Feldman's Neither in spite of a rather elaborate staging, but the music haunted me for years until I revisited it on recording and was transfixed.

Mandryka

Does anyone know why Triadic Memories is called "memories" ? Has he talked about memory, nostalgia and other typically Schubertian concepts?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

EigenUser

Quote from: Mandryka on December 22, 2014, 01:06:10 PM
Does anyone know why Triadic Memories is called "memories" ? Has he talked about memory, nostalgia and other typically Schubertian concepts?
There's a chapter on the piece in the book Give My Regards to Eighth Street. He says that it has a double meaning. One meaning has to do with three piano performers he has fond memories of -- David Tudor, Roger Woodward, and Aki Takahashi.

The other meaning has to do with how a chord is perceived versus how he creates one (there is an example in the book, but it is hard to describe).
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Mandryka

#326
Quote from: EigenUser on December 22, 2014, 05:40:01 PM
There's a chapter on the piece in the book Give My Regards to Eighth Street. He says that it has a double meaning. One meaning has to do with three piano performers he has fond memories of -- David Tudor, Roger Woodward, and Aki Takahashi.

The other meaning has to do with how a chord is perceived versus how he creates one (there is an example in the book, but it is hard to describe).

Thanks. I shall order the book. I asked the question because I started to play it after getting irritated by all the repeats in Schubert's D840. And, as you may know, some scholars think that Schubert's music is really an exploration of memory, nostalgia. So I wondered if Feldman was interested in Schubert.

(Late) Feldman, like Schubert, isn't goal directed (contrast Beethoven), and is pastoral, lyrical, epic, heavenly length.

For what it's worth I find Triadic Memories infinitely more interesting to hear than the Schubert.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

EigenUser

Quote from: Mandryka on December 23, 2014, 08:41:26 PM
Thanks. I shall order the book. I asked the question because I started to play it after getting irritated by all the repeats in Schubert's D840. And, as you may know, some scholars think that Schubert's music is really an exploration of memory, nostalgia. So I wondered if Feldman was interested in Schubert.

(Late) Feldman, like Schubert, isn't goal directed (contrast Beethoven), and is pastoral, lyrical, epic, heavenly length.

For what it's worth I find Triadic Memories infinitely more interesting to hear than the Schubert.
Actually, he was interested in Schubert. A quote from the FeldmanSays app (yes, I actually have it :D -- see first post of the Feldman thread):

Like a bad poker player, Schubert always shows his hand. But this very faultiness, this very failure is his virtue.

He also mentions Schubert in Give My Regards....
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Mandryka

Quote from: EigenUser on December 24, 2014, 02:20:40 AM
Actually, he was interested in Schubert. A quote from the FeldmanSays app (yes, I actually have it :D -- see first post of the Feldman thread):

Like a bad poker player, Schubert always shows his hand. But this very faultiness, this very failure is his virtue.

He also mentions Schubert in Give My Regards....

I wonder what he means, shows his hand. It reminds me of something Boulez says about Mondrian in a letter to Stockhausen - that there's no mystery in Mondrian's style.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

EigenUser

Quote from: Mandryka on December 24, 2014, 07:51:57 AM
I wonder what he means, shows his hand. It reminds me of something Boulez says about Mondrian in a letter to Stockhausen - that there's no mystery in Mondrian's style.
I'm not sure. It is an interesting statement. Lots of things he said are interesting, but also leave the reader wanting to ask Morty more questions. He also said (I think it is in the book Feldman Says) that he really admired Ligeti, but probably not for the reason(s) Ligeti would like. That one also got me scratching my head.
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Mandryka

#330




Anyone read either of these? Literature on the late music, litererature which covers what he was trying to do and why, is hard to find if you don't have access to academic journals. I'm currently trying to get my head around For Samuel Beckett (I'm listening to Mosko after giving up on Cambreling)  - and I'm wondering how he decided when the music was finished.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

snyprrr

Quote from: Mandryka on December 29, 2014, 05:32:55 AM




Anyone read either of these? Literature on the late music, litererature which covers what he was trying to do and why, is hard to find if you don't have access to academic journals. I'm currently trying to get my head around For Samuel Beckett (I'm listening to Mosko after giving up on Cambreling)  - and I'm wondering how he decided when the music was finished.

Mosko was the first Feldman I ever heard, got it at a used store. They say that Mosko is the best here. All I know is that this is the dreariest piece I've ever heard- a long rainy Sunday afternoon in 40 minutes! I say it's in his "non-melodic" style (as opposed to the 'Piano and String Quartet' for instance), the mushy, bleeding colors style,... I like to have it on, but I don't actually like the "feeling"- mushy mushy,... buuut,... there are no other mellow long pieces out there, are there? Could it be used for hypnosis?

I certainly don't want to hear the others...

Mandryka

#332
Quote from: snyprrr on December 29, 2014, 08:25:13 AM
Mosko was the first Feldman I ever heard, got it at a used store. They say that Mosko is the best here. All I know is that this is the dreariest piece I've ever heard- a long rainy Sunday afternoon in 40 minutes! I say it's in his "non-melodic" style (as opposed to the 'Piano and String Quartet' for instance), the mushy, bleeding colors style,... I like to have it on, but I don't actually like the "feeling"- mushy mushy,... buuut,... there are no other mellow long pieces out there, are there? Could it be used for hypnosis?

I certainly don't want to hear the others...

And yet he could write, in the same year as For Samuel Beckett, the stupendous Trio. It's the Trio which I think is the major masterpiece of his final period, not the second quartet or the Quintet.(Can someone upload the Ives Ensemble Trio please, because I want to hear it?)

As far as versions of For Samuel Beckett go, the one other I want to hear is Petr Kotik's, he fiddled around with the score -- bigger string section. Kotik also recorded  The Turfan Fragments, I've only heard this youtube but it sounds interesting to me -- just listen to this, it's real music:

https://www.youtube.com/v/e49qbrz1sZU
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

7/4

"All you need is the kind of spiritual aggressiveness to sit down and be true to what's in front of you."

Harold Budd on Morton Feldman





.


amw

[machine translation]
In fact, when I started to study certain things [Palais de Mari] sounded familiar to me. Then when I analyzed carefully I found explicit references to my Dispersions and Two pianos and violin . At the time I remember that the fact I was surprised: I thought I had imagined him to the floor as he wrote. Would not be so unlikely that he had snatched the peculiarities immaginistiche of my style. However, I was annoyed by its many borrowed from my work. Ransacked my melodies, harmonies, notations, compositional processes. The work that has laid off since 1976 rely heavily on my contribution. The pungolavo every day, my music the prodding. He came to confide that I passed, as a composer. Listened often my work, trying to get on top of the method that it took me. Sometimes he succeeded, others not. The fact is that now I can not hear his Piano and string quartet without nausea because it is a looting from the imagination of my adolescence. He adopted some of my compositional process, certain records and intervallic reactions concerning the orchestration

interview with Bunita Marcus

Doesn't seem to have been much follow-up in the classical music world on the notion that Feldman appropriated lots of musical material from his students, apparently to the point of plagiarism. (This interview hasn't been translated into English either.) Not very surprising.

Artem

Quote from: Mandryka on December 29, 2014, 11:15:41 AM
And yet he could write, in the same year as For Samuel Beckett, the stupendous Trio. It's the Trio which I think is the major masterpiece of his final period, not the second quartet or the Quintet.(Can someone upload the Ives Ensemble Trio please, because I want to hear it?)

As far as versions of For Samuel Beckett go, the one other I want to hear is Petr Kotik's, he fiddled around with the score -- bigger string section. Kotik also recorded  The Turfan Fragments, I've only heard this youtube but it sounds interesting to me -- just listen to this, it's real music:

https://www.youtube.com/v/e49qbrz1sZU
I like Arturo Tamayo's version on Hat Art. Would also recommend to stay away from Roland Kluttig's CD on CPO. His sound is to forceful to my ears, but Tamayo achieves a nice balance with that piece.

milk

Quote from: amw on December 31, 2014, 02:55:42 PM
[machine translation]
In fact, when I started to study certain things [Palais de Mari] sounded familiar to me. Then when I analyzed carefully I found explicit references to my Dispersions and Two pianos and violin . At the time I remember that the fact I was surprised: I thought I had imagined him to the floor as he wrote. Would not be so unlikely that he had snatched the peculiarities immaginistiche of my style. However, I was annoyed by its many borrowed from my work. Ransacked my melodies, harmonies, notations, compositional processes. The work that has laid off since 1976 rely heavily on my contribution. The pungolavo every day, my music the prodding. He came to confide that I passed, as a composer. Listened often my work, trying to get on top of the method that it took me. Sometimes he succeeded, others not. The fact is that now I can not hear his Piano and string quartet without nausea because it is a looting from the imagination of my adolescence. He adopted some of my compositional process, certain records and intervallic reactions concerning the orchestration

interview with Bunita Marcus

Doesn't seem to have been much follow-up in the classical music world on the notion that Feldman appropriated lots of musical material from his students, apparently to the point of plagiarism. (This interview hasn't been translated into English either.) Not very surprising.
I'm reading online that Feldman and Markus were extremely close and that, according to Markus, he taught her, influenced her and championed her:
http://www.newmusicbox.org/articles/who-is-bunita-marcus/
I wouldn't be surprised if Feldman was a bit of an egomaniac. I wouldn't be surprised if any genius composers turn out to be so. These two are described as having been inseparable for a time and as having composed side-by-side. Do you think she was also influenced by him?
Even from the translated quote you provided I'm not seeing support for the assertion that he appropriated a lot of musical material from his students. Any other examples?
Markus seems interesting. I wish I could locate a recording of something of hers.

Mandryka

#337
Quote from: amw on December 31, 2014, 02:55:42 PM
[machine translation]
In fact, when I started to study certain things [Palais de Mari] sounded familiar to me. Then when I analyzed carefully I found explicit references to my Dispersions and Two pianos and violin . At the time I remember that the fact I was surprised: I thought I had imagined him to the floor as he wrote. Would not be so unlikely that he had snatched the peculiarities immaginistiche of my style. However, I was annoyed by its many borrowed from my work. Ransacked my melodies, harmonies, notations, compositional processes. The work that has laid off since 1976 rely heavily on my contribution. The pungolavo every day, my music the prodding. He came to confide that I passed, as a composer. Listened often my work, trying to get on top of the method that it took me. Sometimes he succeeded, others not. The fact is that now I can not hear his Piano and string quartet without nausea because it is a looting from the imagination of my adolescence. He adopted some of my compositional process, certain records and intervallic reactions concerning the orchestration

interview with Bunita Marcus

Doesn't seem to have been much follow-up in the classical music world on the notion that Feldman appropriated lots of musical material from his students, apparently to the point of plagiarism. (This interview hasn't been translated into English either.) Not very surprising.

That made me think of John Fuegi's book on Brecht. Can anyone upload Dispersions and Two pianos and violin? It's a shame she doesn't say which of her pieces the quintet reminds her of,

By the way, I was mistaken in a post above, when I suggested the Trio is a late work - I think it was from 1980, same period as the Turfan Fragments. It remains the piece by Feldman that I like the most. In fact, it's the only one where I can get all the way to the end.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

EigenUser

Quote from: Mandryka on December 31, 2014, 11:26:01 PM
That made me think of John Fuegi's book on Brecht. Can anyone upload Dispersions and Two pianos and violin? It's a shame she doesn't say which of her pieces the quintet reminds her of,

By the way, I was mistaken in a post above, when I suggested the Trio is a late work - I think it was from 1980, same period as the Turfan Fragments. It remains the piece by Feldman that I like the most. In fact, it's the only one where I can get all the way to the end.
I don't think I've heard the trio, but now I'm intrigued.

You can't make it to the end of Coptic Light? ???
Beethoven's Op. 133 -- A fugue so bad that even Beethoven himself called it "Grosse".

Artem

Maybe it is because I haven't heard the right version of the Trio (I have it on Mode and NCA), but I don't like it that much, especially that loud note in the middle of the piece, which sounds like a very clear dividing line and it spoils the magic of late Feldman for me, when his music is floating out of time and structure.