Morton Feldman (1926-1987)

Started by bhodges, March 12, 2008, 10:57:40 AM

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Mandryka

#340
Quote from: EigenUser on January 01, 2015, 04:28:18 AM
I don't think I've heard the trio, but now I'm intrigued.

You can't make it to the end of Coptic Light? ???

Never gone from start  to the end of Coptic Light in one sitting. It reminds me of For Samuel Beckett.

Quote from: Artem on January 01, 2015, 10:18:58 AM
Maybe it is because I haven't heard the right version of the Trio (I have it on Mode and NCA), but I don't like it that much, especially that loud note in the middle of the piece, which sounds like a very clear dividing line and it spoils the magic of late Feldman for me, when his music is floating out of time and structure.

I think we can safely conclude that I'm not very attuned to late Feldman. In fact this Trio sounds so different from works that I think of as paradigmatically late that I wonder whether it is (1980). I like it precisely because it's not floating out of time and structure -- I find floating out of time and structure boring, which is why I find it hard to get to the end of things like Piano and String Quartet or the Second Quartet. By the way zen meditation - Cage's big thing (and hence Feldman's?) - isn't about floating out of time and structure at all. On the contrary.

I will ask again the question I've asked many times -- how did Feldman know when to stop?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

torut

Quote from: milk on December 31, 2014, 05:14:38 PM
I'm reading online that Feldman and Markus were extremely close and that, according to Markus, he taught her, influenced her and championed her:
http://www.newmusicbox.org/articles/who-is-bunita-marcus/
I wouldn't be surprised if Feldman was a bit of an egomaniac. I wouldn't be surprised if any genius composers turn out to be so. These two are described as having been inseparable for a time and as having composed side-by-side. Do you think she was also influenced by him?
Even from the translated quote you provided I'm not seeing support for the assertion that he appropriated a lot of musical material from his students. Any other examples?
Markus seems interesting. I wish I could locate a recording of something of hers.
You can listen to these online, but I couldn't find her early works which she claimed Feldman "snatched" or "loot"ed. I just skimmed two interviews and was surprised by the sharp difference of her tones. What happened to her between 2010 and 2014?

Sugar Cubes (1996)
https://www.youtube.com/v/yv1ecwaz07M

Adam and Eve (1989) from Bang On A Can Live Vol. 3
https://www.youtube.com/v/u5veTD7VDf0

https://bunitamarcus.bandcamp.com/album/favorite-works-from-the-1980s
Adam and Eve (1989)
JULIA (1989)
THE RUGMAKER (1986)
LECTURE FOR JO KONDO (1985)
MUSIC FOR JAPAN (1983)

torut

Quote from: Mandryka on January 01, 2015, 10:35:14 AM
I will ask again the question I've asked many times -- how did Feldman know when to stop?
Another crucial difference is in making the distinction between constructing a "composition" and that of assemblage, which is more what this quartet is about. A "composition" for me forms sentence structures within a scenario of beginning, middle and end. Very much the way Picasso uses a rectangle as a ready-made protagonist. With assemblage there is no continuity of fitting the parts together as words in a sentence or paragraph. - Feldman, String Quartet II

Feldman's writings are as enigmatic as his compositions. I guess he composed music as if it was a painting or a pattern of Turkish rug? (no beginning or end?)

milk

Quote from: torut on January 01, 2015, 10:38:14 PM
You can listen to these online, but I couldn't find her early works which she claimed Feldman "snatched" or "loot"ed. I just skimmed two interviews and was surprised by the sharp difference of her tones. What happened to her between 2010 and 2014?

Sugar Cubes (1996)
https://www.youtube.com/v/yv1ecwaz07M

Adam and Eve (1989) from Bang On A Can Live Vol. 3
https://www.youtube.com/v/u5veTD7VDf0

https://bunitamarcus.bandcamp.com/album/favorite-works-from-the-1980s
Adam and Eve (1989)
JULIA (1989)
THE RUGMAKER (1986)
LECTURE FOR JO KONDO (1985)
MUSIC FOR JAPAN (1983)
Thanks for posting these. I'll listen. Yes, in the interview I read she doesn't seem disparaging at all. She says she was really involved in Feldman's life (at his wedding, composing, academically, etc.). It doesn't surprise me that there are complicated feelings. 

milk

Quote from: torut on January 01, 2015, 10:38:14 PM
You can listen to these online, but I couldn't find her early works which she claimed Feldman "snatched" or "loot"ed. I just skimmed two interviews and was surprised by the sharp difference of her tones. What happened to her between 2010 and 2014?

Sugar Cubes (1996)
https://www.youtube.com/v/yv1ecwaz07M

Adam and Eve (1989) from Bang On A Can Live Vol. 3
https://www.youtube.com/v/u5veTD7VDf0

https://bunitamarcus.bandcamp.com/album/favorite-works-from-the-1980s
Adam and Eve (1989)
JULIA (1989)
THE RUGMAKER (1986)
LECTURE FOR JO KONDO (1985)
MUSIC FOR JAPAN (1983)
Oh. I realize that I own the Adam and Eve piece. It's a nice piece. But I don't perceive anything like the depth of Feldman's music. I'll check this other one.

Mandryka

Quote
Quote from: torut on January 01, 2015, 11:02:13 PM
Another crucial difference is in making the distinction between constructing a "composition" and that of assemblage, which is more what this quartet is about. A "composition" for me forms sentence structures within a scenario of beginning, middle and end. Very much the way Picasso uses a rectangle as a ready-made protagonist. With assemblage there is no continuity of fitting the parts together as words in a sentence or paragraph. - Feldman, String Quartet II

Feldman's writings are as enigmatic as his compositions. I guess he composed music as if it was a painting or a pattern of Turkish rug? (no beginning or end?)

I suppose one major difference between a Turkish carpet and a piece of music is that you can take in the whole carpet in one single act of apprehension. Music is a process, it takes time.

Did Feldman say anything about time?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

milk

Quote from: Mandryka on January 02, 2015, 12:25:10 AM
I suppose one major difference between a Turkish carpet and a piece of music is that you can take in the whole carpet in one single act of apprehension. Music is a process, it takes time.

Did Feldman say anything about time?
"My whole generation was hung up on the 20 to 25 minute piece. It was our clock. We all got to know it, and how to handle it. As soon as you leave the 20-25 minute piece behind, in a one-movement work, different problems arise. Up to one hour you think about form, but after an hour and a half it's scale. Form is easy - just the division of things into parts. But scale is another matter. You have to have control of the piece - it requires a heightened kind of concentration. Before, my pieces were like objects; now, they're like evolving things."

http://www.cnvill.net/mfbio.htm

Mandryka

Quote from: Artem on January 01, 2015, 10:18:58 AM
Maybe it is because I haven't heard the right version of the Trio (I have it on Mode and NCA), but I don't like it that much, especially that loud note in the middle of the piece, which sounds like a very clear dividing line and it spoils the magic of late Feldman for me, when his music is floating out of time and structure.

I want to make a point about this, though I should say that I'm not sure about it. What you say about some lateish pieces seems right - For Samuel Beckett, Coptic Light, Piano and String Quartet possibly. But others seem to be marked out by regular unexpected events which, given the context of quiet repetition, are very dramatic. I'm listening right now to John Tilbury play For Bunita Marcus, and that's what happens from time to time. And I remember something similar in the second quartet. You're right to suggest that the trio has "dividing lines", and I do feel that it's more exciting than much of his music (that's why I like it.) But it's not so unique.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

Quote from: milk on January 02, 2015, 12:38:20 AM
"My whole generation was hung up on the 20 to 25 minute piece. It was our clock. We all got to know it, and how to handle it. As soon as you leave the 20-25 minute piece behind, in a one-movement work, different problems arise. Up to one hour you think about form, but after an hour and a half it's scale. Form is easy - just the division of things into parts. But scale is another matter. You have to have control of the piece - it requires a heightened kind of concentration. Before, my pieces were like objects; now, they're like evolving things."

http://www.cnvill.net/mfbio.htm

Well evolving things are processes. But his music has a beginning and an end, doesn't it?

Or maybe it doesn't  - can you just enter where you want, leave where you want, and not lose or gain anything much?

I remember someone telling me that if you were in New York hearing The Well Tuned Piano, you were expected to be there for the duration.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Karl Henning

Quote from: Mandryka on January 02, 2015, 12:25:10 AM
I suppose one major difference between a Turkish carpet and a piece of music is that you can take in the whole carpet in one single act of apprehension. Music is a process, it takes time.

Did Feldman say anything about time?

Quote from: milk on January 02, 2015, 12:38:20 AM
"My whole generation was hung up on the 20 to 25 minute piece. It was our clock. We all got to know it, and how to handle it. As soon as you leave the 20-25 minute piece behind, in a one-movement work, different problems arise. Up to one hour you think about form, but after an hour and a half it's scale. Form is easy - just the division of things into parts. But scale is another matter. You have to have control of the piece - it requires a heightened kind of concentration. Before, my pieces were like objects; now, they're like evolving things."

http://www.cnvill.net/mfbio.htm

Thanks for getting there first!  That is exactly the remark I was going to fold in here.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

milk

Quote from: Mandryka on January 02, 2015, 04:57:12 AM
Well evolving things are processes. But his music has a beginning and an end, doesn't it?

Or maybe it doesn't  - can you just enter where you want, leave where you want, and not lose or gain anything much?

I remember someone telling me that if you were in New York hearing The Well Tuned Piano, you were expected to be there for the duration.
With some of Feldman's pieces, I do not feel it matters much when I start or stop.

torut

Quote from: milk on January 01, 2015, 11:25:00 PM
Oh. I realize that I own the Adam and Eve piece. It's a nice piece. But I don't perceive anything like the depth of Feldman's music. I'll check this other one.
Adam and Eve does not have much reminiscent of Feldman. Lecture for Jo Kondo and Sugar Cubes have something Feldmanian, but these are later works which Feldman couldn't see, and I think Feldman's works are more delicate and subtle. (Maybe it depends on performances?) If possible, I want to hear Dispersions (1979) or Two pianos and violin (1981) mentioned in the 2014 interview.

torut

Quote from: Mandryka on January 02, 2015, 04:57:12 AM
Well evolving things are processes. But his music has a beginning and an end, doesn't it?

Or maybe it doesn't  - can you just enter where you want, leave where you want, and not lose or gain anything much?

I remember someone telling me that if you were in New York hearing The Well Tuned Piano, you were expected to be there for the duration.
He also wrote, "In my early training as a composer with Stefan Wolpe, the one theme persistent in all our lessons was why I did not develop my ideas but went from one thing to another. 'Negation' was how Wolpe characterized this." (Crippled Symmetry) If he didn't "compose" in a traditional way that has a "scenario," and if there is no continuity, how to start and end a piece of music may not be the most important factor. There is no development or conclusion.

When I listen to a work of Feldman, I feel as if I just happen to start and stop hearing a very long music in the middle of its performance.

milk

Quote from: torut on January 02, 2015, 09:41:19 AM
He also wrote, "In my early training as a composer with Stefan Wolpe, the one theme persistent in all our lessons was why I did not develop my ideas but went from one thing to another. 'Negation' was how Wolpe characterized this." (Crippled Symmetry) If he didn't "compose" in a traditional way that has a "scenario," and if there is no continuity, how to start and end a piece of music may not be the most important factor. There is no development or conclusion.

When I listen to a work of Feldman, I feel as if I just happen to start and stop hearing a very long music in the middle of its performance.
This is how I feel as well. It's like looking in on some natural event, like dipping into a cloud or checking up on an ant colony.

milk

Quote from: Mandryka on January 01, 2015, 10:35:14 AM
Never gone from start  to the end of Coptic Light in one sitting. It reminds me of For Samuel Beckett.

I think we can safely conclude that I'm not very attuned to late Feldman. In fact this Trio sounds so different from works that I think of as paradigmatically late that I wonder whether it is (1980). I like it precisely because it's not floating out of time and structure -- I find floating out of time and structure boring, which is why I find it hard to get to the end of things like Piano and String Quartet or the Second Quartet. By the way zen meditation - Cage's big thing (and hence Feldman's?) - isn't about floating out of time and structure at all. On the contrary.

I will ask again the question I've asked many times -- how did Feldman know when to stop?
For me the core is works like for Philip Guston and Crippled symmetry - works which remind me of the revelation of the mystery of the natural world. 

Mandryka

I've started to listen to the string quintet (Violin and String Quartet)

I can't help but wonder if there are new ideas here, whether this piece is doing anything intetestingly different from the second quartet. Do we really need both?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

milk

Quote from: Mandryka on January 14, 2015, 08:56:40 AM
I've started to listen to the string quintet (Violin and String Quartet)

I can't help but wonder if there are new ideas here, whether this piece is doing anything intetestingly different from the second quartet. Do we really need both?
I didn't know about this piece. Well, I'm going to listen to it today.

Artem

I think Piano and String Quartet is different from the 2nd SQ. But it doesn't bring something new, rather it makes the music more manageable, like For John Cage, for example. The 2nd SQ is rather tricky compared to the Piano and String Quartet

Mandryka

Quote from: Artem on January 14, 2015, 06:55:41 PM
I think Piano and String Quartet is different from the 2nd SQ. But it doesn't bring something new, rather it makes the music more manageable, like For John Cage, for example. The 2nd SQ is rather tricky compared to the Piano and String Quartet.

Please say a bit more about this if you have time. When you say that the 2nd quartet is trickier than the string quintet, do you mean trickier to play or trickier to appreciate?
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

Mandryka

Quote from: torut on January 02, 2015, 09:41:19 AM
He also wrote, "In my early training as a composer with Stefan Wolpe, the one theme persistent in all our lessons was why I did not develop my ideas but went from one thing to another. 'Negation' was how Wolpe characterized this." (Crippled Symmetry) If he didn't "compose" in a traditional way that has a "scenario," and if there is no continuity, how to start and end a piece of music may not be the most important factor. There is no development or conclusion.

When I listen to a work of Feldman, I feel as if I just happen to start and stop hearing a very long music in the middle of its performance.

I wonder how suitable the music is for a concert, where you have to start at the start and end at the end.Sonmeone's playing Triadic Memories in the Wigmore Hall in a few weeks. I'm not sure if I'll go.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen