Morton Feldman (1926-1987)

Started by bhodges, March 12, 2008, 10:57:40 AM

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milk

Quote from: Mirror Image on October 31, 2015, 07:07:59 PM
Thanks for taking one for the team. I'll continue to cherish my California EAR Unit performance.
I like all the CEU recordings. I don't know why I bothered with this one. Well, I wanted to check out the Cage stuff that I'm less familiar with. The Cage stuff I do know well is also better elsewhere.

Mandryka



I've been listening to Anton Batagov play Triadic Memories.


About 40 minutes in, the emotional tone of the music changes radically. It ceases to be uplifting sunlight reflected on a calm sea and becomes threatening and dark for about 7 minutes. Then the dark timbres clear but the general feel of the music is not the same: the world has, as it were, become less comfortable and more disturbing. The cthonic timbres, clouds, recur close  the very end.

It is not music with no structure, on the contrary. This music has a beginning and a middle and an end. Neither is it true that the music is undramatic or uneventful. The last ten minutes are especially interesting, because they do resemble the first 50 minutes and yet . . .  not. And my experience listening to the end definitely involved my memory, failing memory, of what had gone before.

Listening to Feldman made me think of Schubert, which is something I've noticed before. In particular the way emotions work in the music, the way clouds are blown away to reveal sunlight, made me think of the first movement of the Schubert's 9th symphony.

I found the music disturbing, negative, unhappy.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

bhodges

Thanks for that report, and...I gather you liked it (even though dark)? I like the piece a lot - haven't heard it in awhile - but don't recall being disturbed. Perhaps Batagov has unearthed a new angle in it.

Enjoyed the Schubert reference, with which I can empathize. I'm not a Feldman expert, but I wonder if he liked that composer.

--Bruce

mjwal

Quote from: Brewski on December 30, 2015, 01:57:39 PM
Thanks for that report, and...I gather you liked it (even though dark)? I like the piece a lot - haven't heard it in awhile - but don't recall being disturbed. Perhaps Batagov has unearthed a new angle in it.

Enjoyed the Schubert reference, with which I can empathize. I'm not a Feldman expert, but I wonder if he liked that composer.

--Bruce

"I got a phone call from Metzger: 'Would you write something about Schubert? What do you think about Schubert?' I said 'I never think about Schubert'. I couldn't write about Schubert. If I want to think about him as a composer, I can't say very much. If  want to think about him as a genius, you don't have to say anything about him; you just say Schubert, that's enough. § He is the best example of where to put it. Just where to put it. It's not a question of periods, the place is just the key, just where he places it is so fantastic with the atmosphere. Where he places it, is the atmosphere. Not too much, it just floats." - He goes on for 3 lines, but this is the essence. I hope this is fair quotation - it's a little advertisement really for his collection, Give My Regards To Eighth Street. (p.190)
As to Triadic Memories, it was my last great Feldman experience - listening to the recording of Jean-Luc Fafchamps, which I found transfiguring in the way of L.v.B's Op.111 variations, without any resemblance at all, of course. The recording of Aki Takahashi, though flawless, somehow didn't do it for me.
PS. My first great Feldman experience came as a kind of shock: a friend with a gallery invited me to a concert of For Philip Guston in Frankfurt/Main, mid-70s (as I recall). People left, people fell asleep, I sort of drifted for all circa 4 1/2 hours of it, tuning in and out. It was literally inconceivable for me then, at the age of around 30. But I very slowly, because there was almost nothing be had on LP, began to approach his music, mainly via the very good German radio. I'm still approaching it, but I've got a bit nearer. The book is, imo, mandatory. "Instruments are like James Bond" - (p.191). You can open it anywhere and find insights nobody else ever got into - of course, half of them I can't get into either, but I can approach them.
The Violin's Obstinacy

It needs to return to this one note,
not a tune and not a key
but the sound of self it must depart from,
a journey lengthily to go
in a vein it knows will cripple it.
...
Peter Porter

Mandryka

#404
OK, OK, I've ordered Give my regards to 8th St.

I have Fafchamps' recording but I haven't listened to it all the way through. The next one I plan on hearing right through is Roger Woodard's, the beginning sounds very different, agitated, strong rhythms. Did Woodward make it with Feldman looking over his shoulder?   I guess he was part of the Feldman circle.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

snyprrr

Quote from: Mandryka on January 01, 2016, 12:05:11 AM
OK, OK, I've ordered Give my regards to 8th St.

I have Fafchamps' recording but I haven't listened to it all the way through. The next one I plan on hearing right through is Roger Woodard's, the beginning sounds very different, agitated, strong rhythms. Did Woodward make it with Feldman looking over his shoulder?   I guess he was part of the Feldman circle.

I have banned any Feldman piece that can't fit on one disc... for good or ill... waiting for the future...


especially like to hear the Piano Trio and the Violin+SQ on one disc, if possible...

Mandryka

Quote from: snyprrr on January 01, 2016, 09:00:13 AM
I have banned any Feldman piece that can't fit on one disc... for good or ill... waiting for the future...


especially like to hear the Piano Trio and the Violin+SQ on one disc, if possible...

The idea of a disc is sooooo old fashioned.
Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen

snyprrr

Quote from: Mandryka on January 01, 2016, 09:02:49 AM
The idea of a disc is sooooo old fashioned.

eh, what's that you say sonny? (puts horn in ear)


yea, I was laughed at for mentioning CDs....


sure, i'll get a.... errrr..... MEDIA PLAYER (fuuuuuuuuu) so I can play DVDs/CDs.......

then I'll get the biochip so I can stream govermnent terrooeur updates.... ain't the future grand??? microchip yer ass for Feldman

snyprrr

Quote from: Mandryka on January 01, 2016, 09:02:49 AM
The idea of a disc is sooooo old fashioned.

I'm still laughing at this one! :laugh:


I'm at a Feldman impasse. Here's what I got:


1) 'The Ecstasy of the Moment' 3CDs (Etcetera)

2) Zender 4 Concertos (CPO)

3) 'Orchestra' (Mode)

4) Piano and String Quartet (Nonesuch)

5) the early pieces for SQ (Vanguard)

6) 'Palais de Mari' (random various CD)

7) String Quartet (No.1) (Koch)

8)


I USED TO HAVE:

1) For Bunita marcus (HatHut)

2) For Christian Wolff (HathUT)

3) For Philip Guston (HatHut)

4) Clarinet and String Quartet (HatHut)

5) Triadic Memories (Aki Takahashi)

6) Why Patterns?/Crippled Symmetry (NewAlbion)



So,... I had gotten rid of all those HatHuts a looong time ago, for whatever dumb reason. But, I just can't stand music broken up over technological limitations- I'm still in my Feldman-single-disc mode due to lack of media funds.


Here is what I'm obviously considering:

1) Violin and Orchestra (which one? ECM or ColLegno?)

2) 'Only' (NewAlbion) seems like the perfect companion to the 'Ecstasy' set.....

3) '...Chromatic Field...'  WHICH ONE?

4) sTRING qUARTET nO.2

5) 'Viola in My Life I-IV' (ECM)

6) 'Triadic Memories'- I DO LIKE A SINGLE DISC FOR THIS. HOW IS THE MDG?????




I dunno-  what do you think?


and what of:


FOR FRANZ KLINE

FOR FRANK O'HARA

FOR DE KOONING

FALSE RELATIONSHIPS...
ROUTINE INVESTIGATIONS...

snyprrr

Quote from: snyprrr on June 23, 2016, 07:06:39 AM
I'm still laughing at this one! :laugh:


I'm at a Feldman impasse. Here's what I got:


1) 'The Ecstasy of the Moment' 3CDs (Etcetera)

2) Zender 4 Concertos (CPO)

3) 'Orchestra' (Mode)

4) Piano and String Quartet (Nonesuch)

5) the early pieces for SQ (Vanguard)

6) 'Palais de Mari' (random various CD)

7) String Quartet (No.1) (Koch)

8)


I USED TO HAVE:

1) For Bunita marcus (HatHut)   Dunno, I'm still finding this one kind of dull... HatHut still seems the best though

2) For Christian Wolff (HathUT)

3) For Philip Guston (HatHut)

4) Clarinet and String Quartet (HatHut)  I just don't like the "noodling" clarinet. It's like 'Chromatic Field' but doesn't work for me the same

5) Triadic Memories (Aki Takahashi)  OY ---WHIIICH ONE???????

6) Why Patterns?/Crippled Symmetry (NewAlbion)



So,... I had gotten rid of all those HatHuts a looong time ago, for whatever dumb reason. But, I just can't stand music broken up over technological limitations- I'm still in my Feldman-single-disc mode due to lack of media funds.


Here is what I'm obviously considering:

1) Violin and Orchestra (which one? ECM or ColLegno?)

2) 'Only' (NewAlbion) seems like the perfect companion to the 'Ecstasy' set.....ACTUALLY,it only has two pieces 'Ecstasy' doesn't- 83% overlap

3) '...Chromatic Field...'  WHICH ONE?  Tzadik just sounds soooo boxy... the Attaca?, but it costs so much...

4) sTRING qUARTET nO.2

5) 'Viola in My Life I-IV' (ECM)  THIS IS AT THE TOP OF THE LIST, EVEN AHEAD OF VIOLIN/ORCH

6) 'Triadic Memories'- I DO LIKE A SINGLE DISC FOR THIS. HOW IS THE MDG?????




I dunno-  what do you think?


and what of:


FOR FRANZ KLINE

FOR FRANK O'HARA

FOR DE KOONING....... i FOUND THIS PRE-viola/life group kind of duller............

FALSE RELATIONSHIPS...
ROUTINE INVESTIGATIONS...


Seriously, I could use some Feldman help. I'm really finding that 'The Ecstasy of the Moment' renders so many other recitals also-rans, or what, so I'm actually happy that I don't feel the need to further explore the 50s and 60s. 

1) The ECM 'The Viola in MY Life' seems to be the next logical step- though, still , at under 40mins. it really is gonna hurt paying @$15

2) I'm still hemming an hawing over the Violin/Orch... I'm not sure I like it better than the other concertos and such...

3) FOR JOHN CAGE by Zukovsky seems to be my other option. It does seem like the very first "still life" piece.

An4) d then the CHROMATIC FIELD- but the options are quite limited0 Tzadic seems to have grating sound, and the Attaca is OOP and expensive.

5) TRIADIC MEMORIES- someone mentioned Fafchamps- I assume this is the first recording he made (there are two???). I had Takahashi, but that didn't move whomever wrote the above. WHO WHO WHO????? I never liked the Woodward, and his sound is hissy and awful.

Artem

It is odd that you got rid of those Feldman disks on Hat Hut. It is my understanding that they are considered to be the best representation of his recorded music. I really love For Bunita Marcus played by Kleeb.

I like Schleiermacher on MDG for Triadic Memories and would not recomend the latest Fafchamps interpretation. I mentioned it here earlier that he plays it way too loud. I never heard his first recording of that piece.

I only have Patterns in a Chromatic Field on Tzadik. I don't know if it is that specific recording or just the piece itself, but I don't like it at all.

For John Cage on MDG is a little dull.

There is this disk on Wergo by Bugallo-Williams Piano Duo that has Piece for 4 Pianos and 5 Pianos. Very nice disk, although there is a thundering piece by Varese in the middle of that CD that really breaks the mood.

I haven't listened to Feldman in a long time.  :(

snyprrr

Quote from: Artem on June 30, 2016, 07:04:15 PM
It is odd that you got rid of those Feldman disks on Hat Hut. yes... I know... they were heady times... It is my understanding that they are considered to be the best representation of his recorded music. I really love For Bunita Marcus played by Kleeb. yea, I'm not sure, I think they weren't as expensive back then, yea...mm...

I like Schleiermacher on MDG for Triadic Memories  GOODand would not recomend the latest Fafchamps interpretation. I mentioned it here earlier that he plays it way too loud. I never heard his first recording of that piece.the first recording is expensive and not on YT

I only have Patterns in a Chromatic Field on Tzadik. I don't know if it is that specific recording or just the piece itself, but I don't like it at all.Is it the boxy sound? I mean, yes, it's also a"dirty" piece, almost Xenakis for Feldman

For John Cage on MDG is a little dull. Zukovsky should be the only one here

There is this disk on Wergo by Bugallo-Williams Piano Duo that has Piece for 4 Pianos and 5 Pianos. Very nice disk, although there is a thundering piece by Varese in the middle of that CD that really breaks the mood.

I haven't listened to Feldman in a long time.  :(

Feldman is the only background music i can play for the laydies... that Nonesuch Kronos disc has seen more ***** than a *******!!!!!




I figured out the pieces and recordings I wanted, and saw that they are all extrememly rare and expensive. :(

snyprrr

Quote from: snyprrr on June 30, 2016, 07:43:18 PM


I figured out the pieces and recordings I wanted, and saw that they are all extrememly rare and expensive. :(

I think I found a copy of Fafchamps 1990...

cOLLECTING fELDMAN has now become a depressing chore....... everything "correct" is OOP and expensive as all get out...

I just can't stand when they lounge the piece into a 2CD affair...




Triadic Memories on one CD:

Fafchamps 1990 @74min??
Fafchamps 2010 74min??
A. Takahashi  @60min
Batagov 67min
Schleiermacher 80min

snyprrr

Bass Clarinet and Percussion(1979?)

Coming to this work cold, one may wonder what might go on here, but, frankly, this one work I really don't care to hear to much more.

I compared the Barton Workshop and the Mode disc. An AmazonReviewer stated very good reasons why the Mode was the only one that has tuned the percussion correctly. By carefully listening, I agree- the Mode version is the only really good one (the Workshop is "fine", but doesn't have the very well recorded percussion that the Mode does). Here, the tom toms and the timpani play actual tones that the clarinet grinds into. This added dimension is not rendered very well in the Workshop (or, according to the reviewer, the other three permutations).

But, aside from having a decently rendered recording, as much as what Feldman could have wanted, I imagine, I simply find the piece extra hard to hear at the dynamics that all seem to be recorded at , and I don't find any payoff in Feldman's use of tom toms and timpani to drone out tones (though, it does work at times). Frankly, I think this piece may be based on Xenakis's 'Dmaathen' for oboe and percussion. Feldman's patterns seem to reflect some of the feeling if the Xenakis piece; it's just curious.

Frankly, I found the piece somewhat of a dud, even though it had a few moments- and yes, the Mode version should be the only one you base your opinion on. I'm actually a little sad over this... :(

snyprrr

#414
For Bunita Marcus (1986?)

I lump 'For Bunita Marcus' and 'Piano, Violin, Viola, Cello' together, as almost the same piece, for having the same, "mushy", agenda, unlike the more melodically inclined 'Triadic Memories' and 'Piano and String Quartet'. (please don't argue: you know what I mean, LOL!)

I used to have Kleeb, but, for some reason I dumped all my HatHut decades ago. If I were trying to reacquaint myself with this piece, where should I go? The only criticism of Kleeb's recording is that there could be a little bigger acoustic. I seem to recall liking the close, soft and puffy with no reverb recording, but, I'd like to try a different take. Here are the options:

Kleeb (HatHut...art)
Ginsburgh recording is very close and somewhat hard
Liebner (2CDs... disqualified from this survey)
Schleiermacher
Hinterhauser the small sample sounded good
Ilic
very up front and present recording, but ample and soft, not hard...but pretty big


The Ginsburgh recording's up-front and "hard" recording does not please my ears at all, leaving the last three, of which I can find little in the way of samples (just a brief, but promising, Hinterhauser). I hear good things about all three, with Schl/macher getting added notice for the distant-yet-compelling piano image (which might work better than his 'Triadic Memories')

Can anyone definitively help here?... or... not?,,,,

snyprrr

Piano, Violin, Viola, Cello (1987)

Scion7

Quote from: snyprrr on July 07, 2016, 07:47:04 PM
Bass Clarinet and Percussion(1979?)

Frankly, I found the piece somewhat of a dud, even though it had a few moments- and yes, the Mode version should be the only one you base your opinion on. I'm actually a little sad over this... :( 

Maybe it needed the likes of Eric Dolphy or Anthony Braxton to interpret it?   8)
When, a few months before his death, Rachmaninov lamented that he no longer had the "strength and fire" to compose, friends reminded him of the Symphonic Dances, so charged with fire and strength. "Yes," he admitted. "I don't know how that happened. That was probably my last flicker."

snyprrr

Quote from: Scion7 on July 09, 2016, 10:28:39 PM
Maybe it needed the likes of Eric Dolphy or Anthony Braxton to interpret it?   8)

Perhaps, though there's so little going on, I wonder what they would make of it... huh!?!

I'm finding the problem with me here is all that untuned percussion... cymbals whooshing, and all this low level "noise", which, frankly, doesn't seem to carry the mathematical weight of, say, Xenakis. Rihm's percussion technique could also use a lesson from IX, imo.

Frankly, frankly, someone would have to radically reinterpret this piece for me to "get it". If what I've heard already is "it", well, there doesn't seem to be much "there" there.


I'm starting to totally dismiss works that I have to strain to hear. That's one good thing about Xenakis- everything's always either "on", or "off"... very rarely is there a pianissimo passage in Xenakis, and when there is, it carries a lot of weight. Many times, Feldman can be the same, but, I think the danger with him is the self-consciousness of the performer over,-, or under-doing it.


Maybe a HatHut 'Bass Clarinet and Percussion' would have been interesting?



Again, Feldman seems to fall apart for me when it comes to things like cymbals and chimes and gongs, which are less prone to being controlled than a cello with a mute. eh?

snyprrr

Quote from: snyprrr on July 09, 2016, 10:06:37 PM
Piano, Violin, Viola, Cello (1987)

HatHut Artists (Snidjers, van der Haar,...)
Quartet KLIMPT
Bridge Artists (Karis, Macomber, Finkel,...)
Bvhaast Artists (Aki Takahashi, piano)


The Japanese artists take 2CDs for this piece, which I must count as a disqualifier for the purposes of this survey. The other new editions both appear to have come out in 2015. After a cursory listen, I still think the original HatHut recording does the best in terms of blending the piano and strings (the Bridge piano image is a little too big for me; the Stradivarius recording integrates better) and of having that dull, dead ambience that seems to work so well for this particular piece. The Bridge recording is TOO clear and just seemed to bring attention to itself; the Italian version seemed close to the HatHut, but a little more "alive" sounding, which isn't necessarily a perfect thing here, but I's like to hear more. All three are on YT for comparison.






I think there's a little too much reverence for Feldman...



Feldman's not the kind of Composer you want to do a "Complete Cello Music" of, like we've been seeing. It always seems to augur a 2CD breakup of the main, long, piece.



rant: OFF



milk

I'm glad to see Feldman activity here and that snyprrr is on it. I've nothing to add to the discussion...except that Crippled and For Philip are among my favorites. Why Patterns too (give me a piano, flute and percussion every day!). Noël Akchoté has a bunch of weird electric guitar arrangements of Feldman, in case anyone is looking for that sort of thing. Hmm...definitely a Xenakis/Feldman program would be my most desirable concert to see. Wake up! Go to sleep! Wake up! Go to sleep! Wake up!