Better

[karlhenning]

A result of two posts today which essentially asked "I like it:  if that doesn't mean better, what does better mean?"

[Anne]

Good - One item
Better - Two items - Of the two, you like one better than the other.
Best - More than two items - Of the three items, you like one the best of the three.

[karlhenning]

Fascinating.

Truly.

[Danny]

What you like is better than what you don't like, right? But something that is better would be a thing you like more.

Afraid that's as far as my brain will take me right now.   

[karlhenning]

What you like is better than what you don't like, right? But something that is better would be a thing you like more.

Afraid that's as far as my brain will take me right now.   

Well, a brick schoolhouse is red.  So the fact that we can apply this adjective in this instance, must mean that red means a brick schoolhouse . . . .

[Ephemerid]

I am The Centre of the Universe^TM, therefore whatever I like *is* better, right? 

No, I voted "aye."

[Anne]

It's the comparison of adjectives.

Pretty, Prettier, Prettiest - prett is the base part of the word to which we add different endings:er, and est

Dumb, dumber, dumbest - dumb is the base part of the word to which we add different endings: er and est

Ugly, uglier, ugliest - ugl is the base part of the word to which we add different endings: er and est

The ones above are the usual way adjectives are compared.

The adjective below is irregular in the way it is compared.  The entire word changes, not just the ending.

Good, better, best.

[Szykneij]

Clearly there's a difference between stating "this is better" and "I like this better". If I say "I like Beethoven better than Brahms", I'm expressing a personal preference. If I say "Beethoven is better than Brahms", I'm assuming a superior position of authority I have no business taking (at least unless I'm ready to accept the ire and arguments of a multitude of offended Brahms fans.) "I like this better" expresses an opinion. "This is better" is a statement of fact.

[lukeottevanger]

[re. Anne's last post]

But the question is, do we always like what is good?

[JoshLilly]

Clearly there's a difference between stating "this is better" and "I like this better". If I say "I like Beethoven better than Brahms", I'm expressing a personal preference. If I say "Beethoven is better than Brahms", I'm assuming a superior position of authority I have no business taking (at least unless I'm ready to accept the ire and arguments of a multitude of offended Brahms fans.) "I like this better" expresses an opinion. "This is better" is a statement of fact.

Any time the word "better" is used, it's automatically opinion, no matter how it's used. The concept of "good" can never fact.

[karlhenning]

If I say "Beethoven is better than Brahms", I'm assuming a superior position of authority I have no business taking (at least unless I'm ready to accept the ire and arguments of a multitude of offended Brahms fans.)

Or, stand ready to suggest wherein, apart from your simple preference, the one is better than the other.

And you know, some Brahms fans (who do not take any perceived 'slight' to Brahms as a personal offense) may just entertain the hypothesis that Beethoven was better.

Maybe.

[Szykneij]

Any time the word "better" is used, it's automatically opinion, no matter how it's used. The concept of "good" can never fact.

No. If your grade on a test is higher than mine, you did better than me. In this case "better" is measurable. If I beat you in a race, I did better in the race than you because I came in first.

[karlhenning]

No. If your grade on a test is higher than mine, you did better than me. In this case "better" is measurable. If I beat you in a race, I did better in the race than you because I came in first.

It is most peculiar of Josh to persist in this bizarre notion that better is solely a matter of opinion.  He should do better hereafter 

[Danny]

Well, a brick schoolhouse is red.  So the fact that we can apply this adjective in this instance, must mean that red means a brick schoolhouse . . . .

A red flag is always a red flag.

[Keemun]

If I say "I like 'A'" it does not necessarily mean that "A" is better than "B".  In fact, the statement "I like 'A'" has nothing to do with "B". 

Conversely, if I say "'A' is better than 'B'" it does not necessarily mean I like "A", for I could simply dislike it less than "B". 

"I like this" is a statement applicable to one subject, whereas "better" describes one subject in relation to one or more other subjects.  I disagree that "better" is always a statement of opinion.  The statement "I am in a better position to know what I am thinking than you are" is a statement of fact, not opinion.

[Florestan]

Aye.

[JoshLilly]

No. If your grade on a test is higher than mine, you did better than me. In this case "better" is measurable. If I beat you in a race, I did better in the race than you because I came in first.

Now you're talking about things other than personal quality judgements. One would be a numeric result, and the other a chronological thing. I don't see these analogies as having any bearing on talking about saying a piece of music is better than another. Indeed, beating me in a race being "better" is still an opinion in the sense that we all decided that finishing first is "better" than finishing last. It may be a universal view, but there's no objective reality that states one chronological point is "better" than another. You're using "better" in this sense to mean "sequentially first", and "better" on the test to mean "quantitatively more". And it's still an opinion - again, probably universal - that scoring higher on a test is better than not. Objective reality will not bear on any result being "better" than another, regardless of having a higher number, or its chronological sequence. It just states what the result is.

[Florestan]

Now you're talking about things other than personal quality judgements. One would be a numeric result, and the other a chronological thing. I don't see these analogies as having any bearing on talking about saying a piece of music is better than another. Indeed, beating me in a race being "better" is still an opinion in the sense that we all decided that finishing first is "better" than finishing last. It may be a universal view, but there's no objective reality that states one chronological point is "better" than another. You're using "better" in this sense to mean "sequentially first", and "better" on the test to mean "quantitatively more". And it's still an opinion - again, probably universal - that scoring higher on a test is better than not. Objective reality will not bear on any result being "better" than another, regardless of having a higher number, or its chronological sequence. It just states what the result is.

You're really fond of sophistry and verbal play, aren't you?

[(poco) Sforzando]

Well, a brick schoolhouse is red.  So the fact that we can apply this adjective in this instance, must mean that red means a brick schoolhouse . . . .

But is a red brick schoolhouse a better schoolhouse, or simply a redder schoolhouse?

[JoshLilly]

You're really fond of sophistry and verbal play, aren't you?

No, usually it annoys me, and I don't like to do it. I consider it different in this case, since so many (despite the denials of some locals¹) use this stuff to try to enforce their taste and preference onto others. The insistence on an enforced set of rules as to what or who is "great" ("better") and what isn't, and reacting with derision or insult to those who don't follow it. I think this is harmful for several reasons, which is why I think it is important to make the distinction between objectivity and subjectivity (regardless of the education-level, knowledge, or numeric makeup of the opinion-givers).


¹ I'm not naming any local message board residents as doing this, just that so many here deny that it even occurs... though it occurs quite often, as they very well should know.