Siegfried's Funeral Music

[Chaszz]

What do you think about this remarkable piece? What form, and what precedents for form, does it have, if any? Next, is it music with a positive quality or is it a dark expression of furious anger and the desire for revenge? Or both?

[marvinbrown]

What do you think about this remarkable piece? What form, and what precedents for form, does it have, if any? Next, is it music with a positive quality or is it a dark expression of furious anger and the desire for revenge? Or both?

  The Siegfried Funeral March is one of the many highlights of the Ring and it is astounding!  As you correctly have noted in your post it is a dark expression of in my opinion both anger and revenge.  If I am not mistaken, and once again somebody please correct me if I am wrong, you can hear the leitmotif of the Rheingold in Siegfried's Funeral Music.  I am referring to the two chords of Rhein Gold that the rheinmaidens sing at the beginning of Das Rheingold.  Wagner darkens the sound of that rheingold leitmotif and injects it with power  into Siegfried's funeral March to give a deep threatening sound that is absolutely wonderfull.  I believe that to truly appreciate Siegfried's Funeral March you have to see it in the context of the entire Ring!!

  PS:  As usual and as always other Wagnerians on the GMG forum are free too disagree with me!

  marvin 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

The darkened Rheingold-motif is usually called the 'Wehe' (Woe)-motif. Alberich sings it in the first scene of Rheingold, when his amorous advances are repulsed. In Götterdämmerung Wagner harmonizes it anew in an extremely menacing, Hagen-ish way. And that's what you hear at the end of the Funeral March.

[Sergeant Rock]

Hey, guys. I think it's strictly a musical eulogy, not a call to revenge. The leitmotifs are presented in an order that encapsulates Siegfried's origins, life and the cause of his death (the Ring's curse). The funeral "oration" begins with the death motif and moves on to the Volsung motif (Siegfried is a child of the Volsungs). Then we hear Siegmund and Sieglinde's Love Theme and the Sword (we're back in Walküre territory, Act I scene 3, with Siegfried about to be conceived). Then comes Siegfried's theme followed by that majestic transformation of his Horn Call when Siegfried realizes his full power as hero. Then comes Siegfried and Brünnhilde's Love Theme which is crushed by the Power of the Ring (the dark, sinister transformation of the Rheingold theme in its Hagen guise). Then the Curse is heard and the leitmotifs associated with Siegfried wither and die.

Sarge

[vandermolen]

Embarrassed to state that my knowledge of this music comes from the final sequences of the movie "Excaliber". It works very well in that context, although Wagner would probably be turning in his grave.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Hey, guys. I think it's strictly a musical eulogy, not a call to revenge. The leitmotifs are presented in an order that escapulates Siegfried's origins, life and the cause of his death (the Ring's curse). The funeral "oration" begins with the death motif and moves on to the Volsung motif (Siegfriend is a child of the Volsungs). Then we hear Siegmund and Sieglinde's Love Theme and the Sword (we're back in Walküre territory, Act I scene 3, with Siegfried about to be conceived). Then comes Siegfried's theme followed by that majestic transformation of his Horn Call when Siegfried realizes his full power as hero. Then comes Siegfried and Brünnhilde's Love Theme which is crushed by the Power of the Ring (the dark, sinister transformation of the Rheingold theme in its Hagen guise). Then the Curse is heard and the leitmotifs associated with Siegfried wither and die.

Sarge

Exactly. I remember Thomas Mann, in his famous Wagner essay, commenting on the novelistic quality of the whole piece, the way the orchestra 're-tells', as it were, Siegfried's life story.

Embarrassed to state that my knowledge of this music comes from the final sequences of the movie "Excaliber". It works very well in that context, although Wagner would probably be turning in his grave.

Make that somersaults.

[marvinbrown]

Hey, guys. I think it's strictly a musical eulogy, not a call to revenge. The leitmotifs are presented in an order that encapsulates Siegfried's origins, life and the cause of his death (the Ring's curse). The funeral "oration" begins with the death motif and moves on to the Volsung motif (Siegfriend is a child of the Volsungs). Then we hear Siegmund and Sieglinde's Love Theme and the Sword (we're back in Walküre territory, Act I scene 3, with Siegfried about to be conceived). Then comes Siegfried's theme followed by that majestic transformation of his Horn Call when Siegfried realizes his full power as hero. Then comes Siegfried and Brünnhilde's Love Theme which is crushed by the Power of the Ring (the dark, sinister transformation of the Rheingold theme in its Hagen guise). Then the Curse is heard and the leitmotifs associated with Siegfried wither and die.

Sarge

  Thank you Sarge for that post.  I learned something new today.  What an ingenious idea to have the Funeral March "retell" Siegfried's life story as it were.  A superb way to tie all 4 operas together in a climactic finish commemorating the tragic death of a hero.

  marvin

[uffeviking]

Not to be a wise-guy - gal? - so I'll whisper it:

It's not a Funeral Music or March, the identification has been given by I-don't-know-who. The proper word for it is Trauerzug. Literally in the stage directions it is called such, no march no place! 

[Sergeant Rock]

Not to be a wise-guy - gal? - so I'll whisper it:

It's not a Funeral Music or March, the identification has been given by I-don't-know-who. The proper word for it is Trauerzug. Literally in the stage directions it is called such, no march no place! 

For whatever reason the orchestral interlude has always been, as far as I know, translated as Funeral March or Funeral Music rather than Funeral Procession. And the librettos of the Böhm and Karajan Götterdämmerungs call it the Trauermarsch (Barenboim's says Trauerzug; Solti's Trauermusik). But I'll take your word that Wagner's stage directions call it the Trauerzug. If we use that in an English forum, though, I doubt many people are going to know what we're talking about 

Sarge

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I think there is a distinction between stage direction and music. 'Trauerzug' denotes what is happening scenically, 'Trauermarsch' what is happening musically.

[david johnson]

it's just an intense funeral march to me.

dj

[uffeviking]

it's just an intense funeral march to me.

dj

But it is not Siegfried's funeral! The funeral is when Brünnhilde orders the pyre set up for his body and when she rides on Grane into the flames to join. That's his funeral.

If Wagner calls it a Trauerzug, that's good enough for me!

[Haffner]

Hey, guys. I think it's strictly a musical eulogy, not a call to revenge. The leitmotifs are presented in an order that encapsulates Siegfried's origins, life and the cause of his death (the Ring's curse). The funeral "oration" begins with the death motif and moves on to the Volsung motif (Siegfried is a child of the Volsungs). Then we hear Siegmund and Sieglinde's Love Theme and the Sword (we're back in Walküre territory, Act I scene 3, with Siegfried about to be conceived). Then comes Siegfried's theme followed by that majestic transformation of his Horn Call when Siegfried realizes his full power as hero. Then comes Siegfried and Brünnhilde's Love Theme which is crushed by the Power of the Ring (the dark, sinister transformation of the Rheingold theme in its Hagen guise). Then the Curse is heard and the leitmotifs associated with Siegfried wither and die.

Sarge

I'm really liking how both Sarge and Marvin put this.

[Sergeant Rock]

If Wagner calls it a Trauerzug, that's good enough for me!

I'm waiting for a modern director to take Trauerzug literally and have the chorus load Siegfried's body on a train draped with black bunting. 

Sarge

[david johnson]

But it is not Siegfried's funeral! The funeral is when Brünnhilde orders the pyre set up for his body and when she rides on Grane into the flames to join. That's his funeral.

If Wagner calls it a Trauerzug, that's good enough for me!

i was speaking only of how it sounds to me.
does mythic cremation count as a funeral?

dj

[marvinbrown]

Not to be a wise-guy - gal? - so I'll whisper it:

It's not a Funeral Music or March, the identification has been given by I-don't-know-who. The proper word for it is Trauerzug. Literally in the stage directions it is called such, no march no place! 

  Lis, unfortunately I do not speak German and I really wished I did but I noticed that in the Levine Ring after Hagen stabs Siegfried in the back (no pun intended) the Hunters lift and carry Siegfried on his back  in 1 by 1 formations in what appears to be a "march".  Just to further clarify the point can you or any body else here please explain to me the literal meaning of "Trauerzug"?? Sarge lost me with that whole "train draped with black bunting" remark  ??


  PS:  I know this is getting a bit too academic and at the risk of receiving a bill for German lessons from Sarge, Lis etc. I feel it most appropriate to clarify this point of whether Wagner intended for this to be a march or not!!
 
  marvin

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

As the man said - 'Trauerzug' = Funeral Procession (visual) and 'Trauermarsch' = Funeral March (musical).

[Sergeant Rock]

Just to further clarify the point can you or any body else here please explain to me the literal meaning of "Trauerzug"?? Sarge lost me with that whole "train draped with black bunting" remark  ??

What Jezetha said.

My pun had to do with the fact that Zug not only means procession, but also train (and more than a dozen other things as well. They don't have much imagination or inventiveness when it comes to naming things, the Germans  )  Trauer in this case is an adjective meaning funereal. So Trauerzug means funeral procession.

Sarge

[uffeviking]

Would that settle the discussion: A Cortege, which my dictionary says is a ceremonial procession?

Anyhow, I hope we all agree on, it's great music! 

[Sergeant Rock]

Anyhow, I hope we all agree on, it's great music! 

Definitely my favorite bleeding chunk; music of staggering power and emotion.

Sarge