Modern composers

Started by Henk, March 16, 2008, 05:15:18 AM

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lukeottevanger

Sometimes I read Sean's threads.....  >:D

karlhenning

<frantically emends notion of Luke's reading . . . .>

Haffner


Mark G. Simon

Liszt's Bagatelle ohne Tonart is discussed in an article by Robert Morgan (Journal of Music Theory, Spring 1976) called "Dissonant Prolongation". The word "prolongation" is meant in the Schenkerian sense of the word. He gives several interesting examples of music which prolong dissonant sonorities rather than the triad. The examples in 19th century music all prolong a diminished 7th chord. The prelude to Act III of Parsifal is a particularly fascinating example, since at every step there is an alternate tonal reading of the music which Wagner deliberately frustrates, finding ingenious ways of building the prelude out of a diminished 7th chord.

Liszt's Bagatelle also prolongs a diminished 7th chord, but without the parallel tonal implications. Actually the piece resembles minimalism in that it is all about the process of transposing a chord by altering each note by a half step one at a time. One intermediate version of the chord has a dominant 7th flavor to it, but the effect is always transitory, more apparent than real.

Morgan concludes "Liszt strikingly anticipates twentieth-century compositional tendencies in his renunciation of all functional tonal relationships, explicit or otherwise. Nonetheless it is notable that Liszt still adheres to chords drawn from the standard vocabulary of functional tonal music".

karlhenning

Toothsome, thank you, Mark.

(poco) Sforzando

Regarding the Liszt, I would agree with Mark and Luke. The piece is always based on the vocabulary of tonality, but it is "without tonality" in the sense that there are no attempts to use the standard building block chords of tonic, dominant, and subdominant. Writing in the late 19th century, Liszt's conception of "atonality" is very different from what would emerge as Schoenberg's in the early 20th century.
"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

lukeottevanger

Somewhat less technical than the extract Mark quoted, here's the paragraph I was referring to above, from Derek Watson's book on Liszt:

The Bagatelle, it can be argued, does stay within the confines of functional tonality. But the curious, ambivalent, rootless and suspended quality Liszt aims for is effectively conjured up by his use of the diminished fifth, the diminished seventh chord, augmented triads and the 'cancelling-out' effect of, for example, the F an F sharp in [music example].

Which, though it seems to focus slightly differently to Mark's quotation, actually says more or less the same thing. The point being in both, as I said earlier - the piece is without a tonality, as it is constantly floating, but its harmonic vocabulary is essentially tonal. As Sforzando says, this is not atonality as we understand the word through Schoenberg etc.

J.Z. Herrenberg

Erm... is what Liszt does the same as what I remember Schoenberg referring to as 'vagrant tonality'?
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Mark G. Simon

Quote from: Jezetha on May 06, 2008, 07:21:36 AM
Erm... is what Liszt does the same as what I remember Schoenberg referring to as 'vagrant tonality'?

If so, it should be arrested.

Haffner


lukeottevanger

Quote from: Jezetha on May 06, 2008, 07:21:36 AM
Erm... is what Liszt does the same as what I remember Schoenberg referring to as 'vagrant tonality'?

Sort of, but not exactly - if my understanding is correct, that is, which isn't likely as it's a long time since I've thought about this. Vagrant tonality, if it is the same thing as what my professors referred to as roving tonality, is indeed tonality which doesn't settle anywhere for long, but it has, implicitly, I think, a forward purpose that is lacking in the Liszt, because though keys aren't necessarily established for long, they are not always only hinted at as in the Liszt. The Liszt is extraordinary because it is quite specifically and deliberately an experiment in the continuous avoidance of a key centre, with any sense of resolution at any time, however momentary - we're only close to key by inference, and no key is ever formally established even for a second. In roving tonality, the music may well settle relatively securely into a key even if it leaves it soon after.

That's my intuitive* understanding of things - someone better informed will be able to be more precise. The problem with this sort of thing, though, is that difinitions are hard to make.


* I almost wrote 'untuitive' - a type which would have also been an apt neologism in this case.... ;)

J.Z. Herrenberg

Thanks for the differentiation, Luke. So - in 'vagrant' or 'roving' tonality there are points where the music temporarily 'settles down', so to speak, and there is still a telos, both of which the Liszt eschews.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

Henk

#132
Here's a list of modern composers I like (in particular order):
1. Petrassi
2. Bartok
3. Messiaen
4. Ligeti
5. Glass
6. Debussy
7. Satie
8. Reich
9. Schoenberg
9. Takemitsu
9. Varese
10. Babbit
11. Scelsi
12. Lutosławski
13. Carter
14. Gorecki
15. Barber
16. Rzewski
17. Janacek
18. Ives
19. Birtwistle
20. Boulez

There's a lot to discover: Stravinsky; Xenakis; Gerhard; Vivier; Martinu; Medtner; Maderna; Wuorinen; Yun; Chin; Berg; Webern; Berio; Dutilleux; Reynolds; Ganolfi, Mennin; Flagello and others.

A list of modern composers I dislike:
1. Rihm
2. Stockhausen
2. Hindemith
4. Goebbels
5. Henze
6. Eissler
7. Lachenmann
8. Kagel
9. Nono

I have a special interest in dutch modern classical music, but I'm dissapointed in those I've listened to (Andriessen, de Raaf, Top and others).

Henk

#133
Let me just stop with making such lists. It makes me think dat I have an objective overview, which I of course not have.

jochanaan

Quote from: Henk on May 14, 2008, 12:13:23 PM
Let me just stop with making such lists. It makes me think dat I have an objective overview, which I of course not have.
If you meet anyone who does, let us know.  I haven't... ;D
Imagination + discipline = creativity

quintett op.57

Quote from: lukeottevanger on May 06, 2008, 06:08:45 AM
As Sforzando says, this is not atonality as we understand the word through Schoenberg etc.
Atonality should not be understood this way.
This is not a synonymous of serialism.

lukeottevanger

I never said it was. You misunderstand what I mean by Schoenbergian - 'serialism' has nothing to do with it. What I meant (and Sforzando meant, I think) was that atonality generally means 'in no key' (or, to be precise, with key centres changing so quickly and implied in such complex ways that they are effectively not present). This is true of Schoenbergian atonality, whether serial or not, but it is emphatically not true of the Liszt piece - it is atonal only in that it has no single key. But at almost any point it can clearly be heard and seen to be in one key or other.

greg

An easy way to understand atonality or tonality is to just play the chromatic scale- start from any note, for example, the lowest E. Then play the chromatics at equal volume and rhythm up. Stop at any note and compare. None of the notes have complete resolution. But the closest note to sounding resolved is E, because it was the first played (and the lowest). So it's a factor of certain notes being held out, their registers, rhythms, 3rds and 5ths, etc. blah blah blah

Henk

#138
Quote from: Teresa on April 23, 2008, 02:14:48 AM
A 12-tone row is sort of like equal rights for musical notes.

In composition class at the end of the school year we got to write a 12-tone row in which we got to break all the rules we learned throughout the year, but using different weird rules.

The 12-tone 4 part (1 melody and 3 harmony lines) row exercise we were given had the following rules:

In the melody each of the scales 12 notes had to be used before one could be used again, we could repeat or hold-over a note but once that note was left we could not use it again until the other 11 were used.  Also the notes didn't have to be in the same octave.

In the three harmony lines we could have NO tonal intervals such as, 3rds, 5ths, 7ths, etc.  Minor 2nds were encouraged, as were diminished 13ths and tone clusters.  A tone cluster is playing adjacent notes such as C, C#,D, D#.  Tone clusters are often used in scary movies for chilling effect.  Unlike the melody line there was no demand to use a note before the other 11 were used, we were free to reuse notes as we wished as long as they were not tonal.

Then we played our compositions, some really weird and to me ugly music was heard.  This is the only time I wrote atonal music I much prefer tonal music.  But like you I like modern music the best.   I do like dissonance as long as it is used in a tonal structure much like Bartok and Stravinsky use.  But I don't like serial music or any other form of pure atonal music.  Of the composers you like Varese does not sound atonal to me, I have his orchestral works (heavy on percussion) "Amériques" and "Arcana" and his work for 13 percussionists: "Ionisation".  They are modern and exciting but to my ears not atonal at least not the way Schoenberg, Webern and Berg are.

My favorite modern composers in are from the Modern, Neo-Classical (i.e. the Respighi school) Neo-Romantic (i.e. the Howard Hanson school) and some of the less repetitious minimalists compositions.

I have alway thought of Eric Satie as a Impressionist composer (like Ravel and Debussy) if you love Eric Satie there is a fantastic double album of his orchestral works with the Utah Symphony Orchestra conducted by Maurice Abravanel on Vanguard Cardinal VCS-10037/38.

Here is what it includes
  Les Adventures de Merecure
  La Belle Excentrique: Grande Ritournelle
  Cinq Grimaces pour un Songe d'une nuit d'été
  Deux Préludes posthumes et une Gnossienne
  Le Fils des Etoiles
  Gymnopédies Nos. 1 & 3
  En Habit de Cheval "In Riding Clothes"
  Jack In The Box
  Parade: Complete Ballet
  Relâche: Complete Ballet
  Trios Morceaus en forme
::)


I'm rereading this thread at the moment. Your post makes some things more clear to me. I also tend to like music with a tonal basis but with (much) dissonance, but also some pieces with (some) tonal character. I haven't figured it out completely. I will check those schools you mention, sounds interesting.

Henk

Henk

Quote from: jochanaan on April 15, 2008, 12:04:56 PM
Carlo Gesualdo's Moro lasso (you'd like that one, Henk :D)

Will check it out.