Rautavaara's Riverboat

Started by karlhenning, May 01, 2007, 11:03:53 AM

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SymphonicAddict

Quote from: relm1 on August 27, 2019, 06:09:20 AM
I love his chamber music.  There is a disk from ondine that I think has two string quartets and a string quintet that is lovely (going off memory) but features much of what you like in his larger works, just more intimate and more immediate.  I am not so familiar with his operas but am curious about them.  The only opera of his I have is "The Mine" and don't remember it.

I always felt that Rautavaara had similarities with Sibelius but come to think of it, I really can't think of much similarity at all or why I ever thought that.   Maybe in how they merge mystic elements of nature and mythology in their music.

Very good. Thank you!

André



I've listened (twice) to the disc containing symphonies 7 and 8. That's the disc layout, so I simply let the thing proceed as the disc producer had planned it: symphony no 7 followed 6 seconds later by symphony no 8. This proved to be an experiment of sorts. The works are 5 years apart and yet, listened to in succession, it was a bit like hearing the same kind of music - but not the exact same - all over again. I found myself in agreement with the comment made by relm about the tempo/dynamics sameness. But didn't I lay the grounds for this impression by not isolating my listening of the two works ?

It was like listening to symphonies 1 and 2 by Hanson back to back, or Silvestrov 5 and 6, or any two 'mountain' symphonies by Hovhanness (he wrote a dozen such, I reckon). It is of course doing the composer a huge disservice, sort of cheating him of his legitimate right to express himself in the same musical idiom. The hurried listener may want variety, while the composer may want to explore something over again, sort of retracing his steps, so to speak. It made me reflect that the listener can manipulate his own opinion by the context he listens to the music. Anyhow, this is just a way to say that I need to listen to those symphonies separately. Fortunately I have the BIS disc of symphony no 8 (with the violin concerto), so I will be able to hear it in a more objective context.


relm1

I found myself in agreement with the comment made by relm about the tempo/dynamics sameness. But didn't I lay the grounds for this impression by not isolating my listening of the two works ?

It was like listening to symphonies 1 and 2 by Hanson back to back, or Silvestrov 5 and 6, or any two 'mountain' symphonies by Hovhanness (he wrote a dozen such, I reckon). It is of course doing the composer a huge disservice, sort of cheating him of his legitimate right to express himself in the same musical idiom. The hurried listener may want variety, while the composer may want to explore something over again, sort of retracing his steps, so to speak. It made me reflect that the listener can manipulate his own opinion by the context he listens to the music. Anyhow, this is just a way to say that I need to listen to those symphonies separately. Fortunately I have the BIS disc of symphony no 8 (with the violin concerto), so I will be able to hear it in a more objective context.


I think that is what separates the great composers from the good ones though.  That sense of never repeating themselves because they are constantly moving on and covering new ground...each work picks up where they left off which you have with Mahler, Sibelius, Beethoven, even Bruckner for example.  I really felt that in early Raatauvara but less so in his later music.  Definitely not in Hovhanness.  This doesn't make them bad composers or not worth hearing, just a little sense of disappointment in my ears of wishing it had gone somewhere else.

SymphonicAddict

Quote from: SymphonicAddict on August 26, 2019, 05:54:43 PM
I'm listening to 'Book of Visions' right now ('A Tale of Nights' just ended). Very cool thus far, catches the ear easily.

At first I was mildly impressed, but now, having it listened to it, the whole reaction is not necessarily that impressing, but I did enjoy it.

vers la flamme

Is there any love for Einojuhani Rautavaara's Études for piano? I just picked up the Laura Mikkola Naxos CD for cheap, on the strength of the first étude, entitled Terssit or "Thirds". Damn fine I think. Somewhere between Scriabin and Debussy.

Is there any reason that I never hear about anyone listening to this composer? Is his music underrated? Is it just not that good? All I have heard is the Etudes and a few other piano works. I understand he has written symphonies; are these worth exploring?

Most importantly: who here has been listening to Rautavaara lately?

SymphonicAddict

Quote from: vers la flamme on November 12, 2019, 03:45:59 PM
Is there any love for Einojuhani Rautavaara's Études for piano? I just picked up the Laura Mikkola Naxos CD for cheap, on the strength of the first étude, entitled Terssit or "Thirds". Damn fine I think. Somewhere between Scriabin and Debussy.

Is there any reason that I never hear about anyone listening to this composer? Is his music underrated? Is it just not that good? All I have heard is the Etudes and a few other piano works. I understand he has written symphonies; are these worth exploring?

Most importantly: who here has been listening to Rautavaara lately?

I don't consider he's too underrated these days. There is plenty of recordings of most of his works in several record labels.

Don't know those Etudes you mention (which must be interesting). The Piano Concertos have attractive ideas too, and they're certainly original but not too challenging.

Of course his symphonies are worth exploring! I really like Nos. 1, 3, 5, 6, 7 and 8. He often conjures up visionary and otherworldly atmospheres which I find fascinating.

relm1

Quote from: vers la flamme on November 12, 2019, 03:45:59 PM
Is there any love for Einojuhani Rautavaara's Études for piano? I just picked up the Laura Mikkola Naxos CD for cheap, on the strength of the first étude, entitled Terssit or "Thirds". Damn fine I think. Somewhere between Scriabin and Debussy.

Is there any reason that I never hear about anyone listening to this composer? Is his music underrated? Is it just not that good? All I have heard is the Etudes and a few other piano works. I understand he has written symphonies; are these worth exploring?

Most importantly: who here has been listening to Rautavaara lately?

I haven't heard anything of Rautavaara's I did not love but am unfamiliar with the etudes, what disc is this from so I can investigate?  There are few composers who have a greater compositional arch and each work makes sense in its place and time so I love exploring his music.  Oh his symphonies are fantastic!  Very much worth exploring.  I personally believe like the finest symphonists, you need to hear them sequentially.  Don't fret over his brief excursions into serialism (like No. 2 which is nothing like No. 1 or 3), they still are fascinating excursions in an adventure and have tastes of great color at atmosphere to come.  Like the great symphonists, when you arrive at the final symphony (No. 8), it feels like an arrival...a culmination.

vers la flamme

Quote from: relm1 on November 12, 2019, 04:08:48 PM
I haven't heard anything of Rautavaara's I did not love but am unfamiliar with the etudes, what disc is this from so I can investigate?  There are few composers who have a greater compositional arch and each work makes sense in its place and time so I love exploring his music.  Oh his symphonies are fantastic!  Very much worth exploring.  I personally believe like the finest symphonists, you need to hear them sequentially.  Don't fret over his brief excursions into serialism (like No. 2 which is nothing like No. 1 or 3), they still are fascinating excursions in an adventure and have tastes of great color at atmosphere to come.  Like the great symphonists, when you arrive at the final symphony (No. 8), it feels like an arrival...a culmination.
Thanks, I will check them out. Is there a good recording to look out for? I am a big fan of much Serialism so I wouldn't fret over it at all if he does something interesting with it.

Here is the disc I have been listening to tonight:



Laura Mikkola on Naxos. Very talented young Finnish pianist. The disc includes the first two piano sonatas (all of them...? I don't know how many he wrote), a suite called Icons, and a set of Preludes in addition to the great Etudes. When I first heard the Thirds etude it was like getting smacked in the face. Damn good music.

pjme

#228
Cantus arcticus (concerto for birds and orchestra), composed in 1972, was the work that put Rautavaara on my musical map. I still love this sweet, neo-impressionistic evocation of nordic marshes and flying swans.

https://www.youtube.com/v/8X2FU1KU4_U

Mikko Franck introduced the 8th symphony in Belgium with the NOB. Another favorite. But then I'm not afraid of "Feroce" or "Con grandezza" material.


vers la flamme

I'm back on Rautavaara a little bit. I have two Naxos discs of his music. Not sure if I'm ready to make the jump into buying one of the Ondine boxes just yet but the symphonies and concertos boxes both look great, and pretty cheap too. I listened to a handful of his piano works yesterday and I was most impressed with the Piano Concerto No.1, which sounds like a beast to play, but contained some wonderful music. The two piano sonatas are also excellent. I think he is fascinated with stillness, he probably learned much from Debussy's Preludes and Prokofiev's War Sonatas.

vandermolen

Quote from: vers la flamme on February 24, 2020, 01:41:15 AM
I'm back on Rautavaara a little bit. I have two Naxos discs of his music. Not sure if I'm ready to make the jump into buying one of the Ondine boxes just yet but the symphonies and concertos boxes both look great, and pretty cheap too. I listened to a handful of his piano works yesterday and I was most impressed with the Piano Concerto No.1, which sounds like a beast to play, but contained some wonderful music. The two piano sonatas are also excellent. I think he is fascinated with stillness, he probably learned much from Debussy's Preludes and Prokofiev's War Sonatas.
I have the Ondine symphonies box which has given me much pleasure as well as multiple recordings of Symphony No.8 'The Journey' and a couple of Symphony No.7 'Angel of Light'.
"Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm" (Churchill).

'The test of a work of art is, in the end, our affection for it, not our ability to explain why it is good' (Stanley Kubrick).

Mirror Image

Rautavaara is sort of a like a Nordic Impressionist of sorts and I need to get past the fact that I believe his work all has a similar feel to it. This is question for everyone: what two works of his would make for the greatest musical contrast?

relm1

#232
Quote from: Mirror Image on February 24, 2020, 07:00:06 AM
Rautavaara is sort of a like a Nordic Impressionist of sorts and I need to get past the fact that I believe his work all has a similar feel to it. This is question for everyone: what two works of his would make for the greatest musical contrast?

He went through many phases.  I think you should check out his first 3 symphonies (yes, yes, I know you said two works but hear me out).  On the Ondine Max Pommer recording of his first three symphonies, you'll get three versions of Rautavaara that are unlike his late style.  His Symphony No. 1 is more in the debt of Shostakovitch.  Dramatic with bold and dark moments.  His Symphony No. 2 is very abstract and serialist, atonal.  His Symphony No. 3 is Germanic romanticism echoing Bruckner and probably his boldest (loudest) symphony.  To me, in this one disc you get three very different versions of the same composer that is nothing like what he is most commonly known for since his later style came in the mid 1970's and all these works predate that.  Like any great composer, their oeuvre is a journey well worth exploring and where they start and where they end is very different and the journey is very enjoyable and worth exploring.  Don't diminish him to his last new age persona.  He is far more than that. 


André

Quote from: relm1 on February 24, 2020, 04:18:19 PM
He went through many phases.  I think you should check out his first 3 symphonies (yes, yes, I know you said two works but hear me out).  On the Ondine Max Pommer recording of his first three symphonies, you'll get three versions of Rautavaara that are unlike his late style.  His Symphony No. 1 is more in the debt of Shostakovitch.  Dramatic with bold and dark moments.  His Symphony No. 2 is very abstract and serialist, atonal.  His Symphony No. 3 is Germanic romanticism echoing Bruckner and probably his boldest (loudest) symphony.  To me, in this one disc you get three very different versions of the same composer that is nothing like what he is most commonly known for since his later style came in the mid 1970's and all these works predate that.  Like any great composer, their oeuvre is a journey well worth exploring and where they start and where they end is very different and the journey is very enjoyable and worth exploring.  Don't diminish him to his last new age persona.  He is far more than that. 



+1

What you say about Rautavaara also applies to composers like Kancheli, Silvestrov or Penderecki. They are multi-faceted to a surprising degree. Just like Stravinsky before them.

Mirror Image

Quote from: relm1 on February 24, 2020, 04:18:19 PMHe went through many phases.  I think you should check out his first 3 symphonies (yes, yes, I know you said two works but hear me out).  On the Ondine Max Pommer recording of his first three symphonies, you'll get three versions of Rautavaara that are unlike his late style.  His Symphony No. 1 is more in the debt of Shostakovitch.  Dramatic with bold and dark moments.  His Symphony No. 2 is very abstract and serialist, atonal.  His Symphony No. 3 is Germanic romanticism echoing Bruckner and probably his boldest (loudest) symphony.  To me, in this one disc you get three very different versions of the same composer that is nothing like what he is most commonly known for since his later style came in the mid 1970's and all these works predate that.  Like any great composer, their oeuvre is a journey well worth exploring and where they start and where they end is very different and the journey is very enjoyable and worth exploring.  Don't diminish him to his last new age persona.  He is far more than that. 



Thanks for the feedback, relm1.

foxandpeng

Having spent a few days with Rautavaara, I am beginning to find my stride. I have always enjoyed the symphonies, but hearing 2 or 3 daily has been a great experience. I feel I am starting to get a grasp of them in a deeper way. Alongside that, I have focused on hearing as much of his almost-symphonies and other works as possible.

Today's high point has been his Book of Visions, a programmatic piece in four movements, describing Tales of Night, Fire, Love and Fate. What a great piece of music. Although I sometimes need several plays of some Rautavaara works to get any sort of purchase on them, his Book of Visions contains real immediacy and beauty. I  have thoroughly enjoyed hearing this.
"A quiet secluded life in the country, with the possibility of being useful to people ... then work which one hopes may be of some use; then rest, nature, books, music, love for one's neighbour — such is my idea of happiness"

Tolstoy

relm1

Quote from: foxandpeng on April 30, 2022, 02:04:17 PM
Having spent a few days with Rautavaara, I am beginning to find my stride. I have always enjoyed the symphonies, but hearing 2 or 3 daily has been a great experience. I feel I am starting to get a grasp of them in a deeper way. Alongside that, I have focused on hearing as much of his almost-symphonies and other works as possible.

Today's high point has been his Book of Visions, a programmatic piece in four movements, describing Tales of Night, Fire, Love and Fate. What a great piece of music. Although I sometimes need several plays of some Rautavaara works to get any sort of purchase on them, his Book of Visions contains real immediacy and beauty. I  have thoroughly enjoyed hearing this.

He's such a wonderful composer with a very wide range.  Reminds me of his countryman, Sibelius, in how anything you pick up with his name will certainly be of high quality even if not quite the style you expect.  A very fine composer. 

foxandpeng

#237
Quote from: relm1 on April 30, 2022, 04:10:45 PM
He's such a wonderful composer with a very wide range.  Reminds me of his countryman, Sibelius, in how anything you pick up with his name will certainly be of high quality even if not quite the style you expect.  A very fine composer.

Couldn't agree more. I have really come to appreciate what I can only describe with my limited musical capabilities as Rautavaara's ethereal quality. I, at least, know what I mean by that 😁.

Cross-posted from the WAYLT, I have very much benefitted from the two cello concertos this afternoon, which depart a little from that ethereality, but are so worthwhile.

Quote from: foxandpeng on May 01, 2022, 06:07:11 AM
Einojuhani Rautavaara
Cello Concerto #2 'Towards the Horizon'
John Storgårds
Helsinki PO
Cello Concerto #1
Max Pommer
Helsinki PO
Ondine


What beautiful cello concertos. Thoroughly enjoyable. Separated by a good many years and a great deal of music under the bridge, #2 just takes first place, for me. A fine conclusion before his own final horizon, I think.
"A quiet secluded life in the country, with the possibility of being useful to people ... then work which one hopes may be of some use; then rest, nature, books, music, love for one's neighbour — such is my idea of happiness"

Tolstoy

foxandpeng

Rautavaara could never be accused of having a limited view of the numinous or the ethereal, if Angels and Visitations is anything to go by. There are dark and ominous elements to his view of the angelic that are far more in keeping with the majestic and otherworldly Cherubim and Seraphim of Ezekiel and the Old Testament prophets, than are ever found in the chubby cheeked and emasculated art of some Western expectations. This is the smoke and fire of Sinai, rather than the limp and butterfly-winged comfort of modernity.

Fine music which encapsulates a level of mystery, I think!
"A quiet secluded life in the country, with the possibility of being useful to people ... then work which one hopes may be of some use; then rest, nature, books, music, love for one's neighbour — such is my idea of happiness"

Tolstoy

relm1

Quote from: foxandpeng on May 01, 2022, 06:37:11 AM
Rautavaara could never be accused of having a limited view of the numinous or the ethereal, if Angels and Visitations is anything to go by. There are dark and ominous elements to his view of the angelic that are far more in keeping with the majestic and otherworldly Cherubim and Seraphim of Ezekiel and the Old Testament prophets, than are ever found in the chubby cheeked and emasculated art of some Western expectations. This is the smoke and fire of Sinai, rather than the limp and butterfly-winged comfort of modernity.

Fine music which encapsulates a level of mystery, I think!

Agreed, a fine and engaging work.  I always got the impression the work was inspired by angelic warfare between the demonic and angelic.