Bach or Beethoven re most influential

[FideLeo]

Another way of looking at the power of Bach's influence is in how bloody seemingly impossible it is to write something as good as the old bastard!

If there are no direct follow-up's to Bach's achievement, can one talk about about his influences, or just the lack thereof? 

[Norbeone]

If there are no direct follow-up's to Bach's achievement, can one talk about about his influences, or just the lack thereof? 

Well, you know I was just exagerrating...I think.   

[FideLeo]

Well, you know I was just exagerrating...I think.   

Maybe   
It is, however, easy to find those who had influenced Bach... Vivaldi, Palestrina, Orlando di Lasso, Walther, Frescobaldi, Pergolesi, Pachebel, Muffat, and many more. 

[Haffner]

There's nothing in the nuts & bolts i.e. the harmony & rhythm of Haydn (or Mozart), to even raise Bach's eyebrow.
Aside from his expansions of form & structure, his music is a simplification.

Thanks for setting us straight on that point, James!

[Ephemerid]

Not to say one or the other, but listening to Stravinsky, one of the most influential composers of the 20th century, you know he owes a LOT to Bach.

[FideLeo]

Thanks for setting us straight on that point, James!

We are talking about influences here, not complexity! 

[FideLeo]

Not to say one or the other, but listening to Stravinsky, one of the most influential composers of the 20th century, you know he owes a LOT to Bach.

Where in Stravinsky? Pulcinella? 

[DavidW]

It seems kind of a funny thread because Bach and Beethoven are perhaps the two greatest composers, but not the two most influential.

[FideLeo]

It seems kind of a funny thread because Bach and Beethoven are perhaps the two greatest composers, but not the two most influential.

I agree with you here.

[Mark]

A point which some might not have considered about this thread's OP: Could we actually be talking about which of these two composers was more influential than the other, rather than more influential than any other composer, including Mozart?

Just a thought ...

[MN Dave]

It seems kind of a funny thread because Bach and Beethoven are perhaps the two greatest composers, but not the two most influential.

And who, pray tell, would they be? Hmmm?

[DavidW]

And who, pray tell, would they be? Hmmm?

Monteverdi, Haydn and possibly Schoenberg.

[Haffner]

Monteverdi, Haydn and possibly Schoenberg.

Now this is original and Interesting (note the capitol "I"!)!!!

[DavidW]

Now this is original and Interesting (note the capitol "I"!)!!!

Okay I don't get it, enlighten me please.

[MN Dave]

Monteverdi, Haydn and possibly Schoenberg.

I see your point.

[Haffner]

Okay I don't get it, enlighten me please.

I think your list is especially Interesting because it isn't what alot of people would expect.

[Mark]

I think your list is especially Interesting because it isn't what alot of people would expect.

Perhaps not. But it's a very obvious threesome, nonetheless. Which isn't to suggest it's wrong, incidentally.

[bassio]

"Monteverdi, Haydn and possibly Schoenberg."

I see your point.

Unfortunately still not clear for me here. I am not into Monteverdi, but I can't understand how he is the most influential composer.
Just because he invented the "seconda prattica" does not mean he is the most influential composer in western music because all composers after him used the "seconda prattica". (monody was always the way even before the religious middle age/renaissance polyphonic movements - perhaps even before they invented sheet music  )

Your Monteverdi argument is similar to when you say Haydn is the most influential instrumental composer, why, because he is the "father of the symphony". On similar grounds CPE Bach is the godfather of all piano solo music because he "is the father of the sonata". I don't think it works this way, don't count "influence" extendable when comparing composers.

Schoenberg is understandable though. This man had influence, hate him, love him, but they are still writing using his concept till now, that's a hundred years.

As for Haydn, his great influence was on Mozart and Beethoven, going further won't yield any particular influence, so I will side with Mark here.

Bach missed any influence on the following Classical and Rococo era; and I guess this is only due to two facts:
1) The early death of Mozart - if he had lived longer he would have shown us the direct Bach influence - apparent in his late works as the Requiem or the finale of the Jupiter etc.
2) Beethoven being the revolutionary he was - his early influence was Haydn and Mozart - then he remained a period just "being Beethoven" - until he shows us a glimpse of return to polyphonic treatments in his later works, I assume probably from Bach influence, very similar to the Mozart case - both only showing Bachish influences at their last glimpses.

Now after the Bach revival in the Romantic period Bach regained some of the "influence" .. but let us leave this to the ongoing conversations.

As for Beethoven, well this man has influence= Liszt, Brahms, Wagner, (Schubert?). The man probably fathered the whole Romantic era.

But who becomes the next hero?. I guess it will mostly be Chopin and Liszt, (Wagner??) with IMO Liszt taking the upper hand due to his harboring the "music of the future".

Anyway, let me return to the original topic. Bach versus Beethoven, oh boy that is difficult. But I believe Bach's influence on 20th century is greater than Beethoven's, whose main influence was on the Romantic period.

Oh my God what a chaotic disarranged post.

[bassio]

And Monteverdi & Schoenberg as wide-spread, influencial, substantial and important as Bach ? longevity? depth? influence? etc...naaa

Well, if Bach is the most substantial influence, we are still eagerly waiting for DavidW to explain to us further his opinions.

One thing I have missed when counting Monteverdi's influence is his tribute to the genre of vocal music (opera in particular that's to say), which is a substantial part of the repertory, and which I unfortunately still did not dig into. I guess this is the point DavidW will be making.
But as someone who have not heard much of Bach's cantatas yet .. I guess Bach also made his fine tribute to this genre.

DavidW's opinion on Haydn will be interesting to know too.

[DavidW]

DavidW's opinion on Haydn will be interesting to know too.

The composers that I listed were instrumental in developing the styles of their day, revolutionizing music during their time.  Their presence actively changed how music was composed.  Certainly after the fact many composers studied Beethoven and Bach, but how many directly took their music and were inspired almost exclusively by them and them alone?  During Beethoven's time nobody else could write like him and understand him and later what Romantic wanted to write exactly like Beethoven, a classicist would?  Not even Brahms.

In a way Beethoven and Bach still stand alone.  Not only during their time, but even when they were appreciated later, music had evolved into a very different beast anyway. 

But the composers I listed had people emulating and developing directly from their style during their life.