Bach or Beethoven re most influential

[dave b]

Not entirely a subjective question. I forget now which composer is said to have had the most influence on classical music, more than Mozart. Second question is, What biography of Bach would any of you folks recommend? Thanks in advance for all info.

[Mark]

I don't know the answer. But my guess is that it's Bach.

[dave b]

That is what i remember people saying the consensus was. Thank you....

[dave b]

I think I will ask the second question by itself instead of an add-on to my first question

[c#minor]

Ahh hard question. But i think it has to be Beethoven. I know Beethoven studied Bach as well as almost everyone under the sun, but Bach really wasn't all that innovative. Bach was undoubtably the best Baroque composer and has had profound influence on music but Beethoven began a period of music. If Bach where never to exist music would different, but if Beethoven never existed would there be such a thing as the Romantic period??? 

[Mark]

... but Bach really wasn't all that innovative.

Art of Fugue, anyone?

[BachQ]

As to influence: Wagner > Bach > Beethoven

[c#minor]

Art of Fugue, anyone?

I am a champion of that work and talk wonders about it whenever i get the chance but which is more innovative Art of Fugue or Erocia???

[Mark]

I am a champion of that work and talk wonders about it whenever i get the chance but which is more innovative Art of Fugue or Erocia???

Both, but in different ways. One doesn't have to set the world ablaze to innovate.

[Bonehelm]

As to influence: Wagner > Bach > Beethoven

Actually, the universally-acknowledged fact is:

71dB > Elgar > Dittersdorf > Banana > Beethoven

[hornteacher]

To me its like asking who was more influential to British History, Elizabeth I or Winston Churchill.  Different eras, different type of influence.

Bach had the most influence on the way in which music would be taught.  Beethoven had the most influence on the way the artist and his/her music would be perceived.

[c#minor]

Both, but in different ways. One doesn't have to set the world ablaze to innovate.

"but in different ways"

i agree with this and you almost made me concede my point..... almost

My main thing i am trying to get at here is that Beethoven began, where as Bach ended. Bach was the greatest craftsman of music the world has ever known, true. Somehow within this incredible craftsmanship he created great beauty as well, also true. But Beethoven was radically different. Nothing before Erocia sounds anything like it. He expanded the orchestra, and it stuck. Then everyone began writing in the style of Beethoven. The people of Bachs day found his music complex and dated. The classical period was on the up and coming and Bach music gathered dust for almost 100 years after he died! (aside from the few devoted Bach enthusiasts, who would end up having the last laugh). The world moved on after Bach, Beethoven shaped the world! But then Bach resurfaced and then he got the upmost respect he so deserves, but the "damage" had been done, the world had moved on.

Ahh i tend to ramble, but i think did okay in making my point.  

[Haffner]

As to influence: Wagner > Bach > Beethoven

Wagner > Mozart > Beethoven > Bach

[FideLeo]

Wagner > Mozart > Beethoven > Bach

Haydn > all of the above 

[Haffner]

Haydn > all of the above 

Love him, so can't argue much. To me, this is all just idle conjecture. Those are all magnificent composers, many of different eras. hard to really "rate" them.

[Mark]

"but in different ways"

i agree with this and you almost made me concede my point..... almost

My main thing i am trying to get at here is that Beethoven began, where as Bach ended. Bach was the greatest craftsman of music the world has ever known, true. Somehow within this incredible craftsmanship he created great beauty as well, also true. But Beethoven was radically different. Nothing before Erocia sounds anything like it. He expanded the orchestra, and it stuck. Then everyone began writing in the style of Beethoven. The people of Bachs day found his music complex and dated. The classical period was on the up and coming and Bach music gathered dust for almost 100 years after he died! (aside from the few devoted Bach enthusiasts, who would end up having the last laugh). The world moved on after Bach, Beethoven shaped the world! But then Bach resurfaced and then he got the upmost respect he so deserves, but the "damage" had been done, the world had moved on.

Ahh i tend to ramble, but i think did okay in making my point.  

Beethoven learned a great deal how to compose by playing Bach on the piano, and was endlessly fascinated and in awe with his music....the chromaticism in the unfinished fugue from 'Art of fugue' reaches forward to Wagner & early Schoenberg! Beethoven developed new & more elaborate sonata, symphonic forms etc. which opened up new ground for future composers to explore....but he didn't really approach Bach's genius insight & density of thought ... but Beethoven was not interested in writing like that for the most part.

James answers for me on this one ...

[FideLeo]

Love him, so can't argue much. To me, this is all just idle conjecture. Those are all magnificent composers, many of different eras. hard to really "rate" them.

Not really just idle speculation if one considers the founding use of the sonata form and other classical musical forms - scherzo, rondo, variation and all the hybrid combinations of the above - Haydn's status appears to be paramount in these.

fl

[Mark]

Not really just idle speculation if one considers the founding use of the sonata form and other classical musical forms - scherzo, rondo, variation and all the hybrid combinations of the above - Haydn's status appears to be paramount in these.

fl

You're right in that Haydn was the 'father' of so much innovation during the classical period. But after Beethoven, whom did Papa influence? It strikes me that Johann, Wolfgang and Ludvig have probably made the greatest impression on successive generations of composers.

[FideLeo]

You're right in that Haydn was the 'father' of so much innovation during the classical period. But after Beethoven, whom did Papa influence? It strikes me that Johann, Wolfgang and Ludvig have probably made the greatest impression on successive generations of composers.

But in what ways did Beethoven and Mozart influence later composers?  Or these influences are actually Haydn's, relayed through his direct inheritors (among which LvB and WAM were counted)? 

[Norbeone]

Another way of looking at the power of Bach's influence is in how bloody seemingly impossible it is to write something as good as the old bastard! That damned Chaconne for solo violin! I can just hear Bartok, in his solo violin sonata, screaming at himself, forcing himself to write something even vaguely as profound!

And those organ works! How could it be possible?!

The cello suites!

The Art of the Fugue! Ahhhh!

don't even talk about the B Minor Mass!

You get the picture.