A New Game (High Difficulty)

[JoshLilly]

Let's try a stab at this.
Some points:

1. No, it's not Raff.   
2. It's not Classical Era, which most who know about me would presume
3. One file is big, the other is huge. You need high-speed Internet for this
4. They are zipped mp3 files (not infected with anything)
5. The two movements may or may not be from the same work
6. Both are by the same composer, though
7. Due to their size, I can't leave them up forever

Unless someone knows one or both works, they will not be able to "guess" the composer, I don't think. No, probably this one ranges into the realm of the outright impossible. However, let's see what people might be able to determine about the composer, such as nationality, influences, whether they are from the same symphony or not, &c.

If someone gets the name, they win, of course. I'll try to think of a suitable prize of some sort. That ain't gonna happen, though. Not this time.  But still, kinda curious what people think of this music coming in blind, so to speak.  Since really, in this case you either know it or you don't, I'm just hoping some people listen, give opinions, try to identify at least the decade(s) of composition, and so on, and then the answer will be given fairly quickly.

The first file is about 8 megabytes, the second... about 20. With my Internet connection, it only takes me a few seconds to download either one, though, so if you have a good connection, it's no biggie!


http://76.7.49.24/josh/audio/mys_symA.zip
http://76.7.49.24/josh/audio/mys_symB.zip

[some guy]

Well, the scherzo sounds very much like Berwald. Which would make it one of the two I don't have. (I.e., neither Singuliere nor Serieuse.)

The other sounds less like Berwald, but still close. Still 1840 round about. In sound if not in fact. Could be 20's, could be later. Could be even MUCH later if you got ahold of someone seriously regressive.

Best guess is that it's no later than mid century, no earlier than 1820.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Listening to the first movement. The music is clearly written after Schumann (certainly) and Wagner (possibly). So, I think it's from 1880-1890, or thereabouts. But it could be even 20th century... There is some chromaticism, there is a nice use of a solo violin (I think), which points to the sort of timbral differentiation you certainly don't have around 1820. The composer is from the German-Austrian tradition, but he is not from that part of the world, I think. Could be Scandinavian (Gaade?). Or... Australian (I remember an Australian composer who studied in Leipzig and wrote symphonies...) Or Russian. I like it. It has a singing quality and it is colourful.

The second movement's main idea is very Beethoven-ish.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Mid-19th century makes most sense to me. The music is not so highly chromatic as to place it in the Mahler-Reger-Strauss era, so I doubt it's as late as Jezetha thinks, but the dimensions of the movements are large enough to make it probably post-Beethoven. Since the two movements are both in the same key (D major, I'd say), I could see them as being part of the same symphony. Definitely not Berwald, as I know his four symphonies and this sounds a little too smoothly professional compared to Berwald's occasional quirkiness. Not Louise Farrenc either, and I doubt it's Onslow, but it could be Ferdinand Ries, who did write two symphonies in D major (and whose music I don't know). Those hunting horns in the scherzo sound more Austro-Germanic than French. Can't say the music bowls me over, but it's well-crafted and professional.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Mid-19th century makes most sense to me. The music is not so highly chromatic as to place it in the Mahler-Reger-Strauss era, so I doubt it's as late as Jezetha thinks, but the dimensions of the movements are large enough to make it probably post-Beethoven. Since the two movements are both in the same key (D major, I'd say), I could see them as being part of the same symphony. Definitely not Berwald, as I know his four symphonies and this sounds a little too smoothly professional compared to Berwald's occasional quirkiness. Not Louise Farrenc either, and I doubt it's Onslow, but it could be Ferdinand Ries, who did write two symphonies in D major (and whose music I don't know). Those hunting horns in the scherzo sound more Austro-Germanic than French. Can't say the music bowls me over, but it's well-crafted and professional.

I agree the music isn't highly chromatic, but there was something in the first pages of the first movement that sounded as if Wagner was already a force to be reckoned with, and that only started around 1880, I think, when the scale of his achievement was beginning to sink in. Also, there is something about the sound of the piece and the handling of the orchestra, which my ears refuse to relate to the middle of the 19th century...

I am getting very curious! JoshLilly, where art Thou?!

[JoshLilly]

I'm still around!!

[(poco) Sforzando]

I'm still around!!

Delighted to hear that, but how about some feedback? Unless you're planning to step in only when someone guesses the "right answer," one would like to know if one is on the right track to whatever degree, and possibly to get some useful clues to help narrow this down.

[JoshLilly]

Hmmm, I'm not sure what clues would be helpful. I'm hoping to get more people to listen first.

I'll say, Brahms thought very highly of the symphonies of this person - or, at least, this person's last 2 symphonies, not sure about the rest - and was familiar with them before embarking on his own Symphony #1 in C minor. That should help with the dating a bit!  (That this music predates Brahms #1 was one of the big surprises to the experts that I've read write about it, but unfortunately I don't really know anything about music in a technical sense, so I don't know why. To me, it sounds further back in time than Brahms #1, and indeed it is!)

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Hmmm, I'm not sure what clues would be helpful. I'm hoping to get more people to listen first.

I'll say, Brahms thought very highly of the symphonies of this person - or, at least, this person's last 2 symphonies, not sure about the rest - and was familiar with them before embarking on his own Symphony #1 in C minor. That should help with the dating a bit!  (That this music predates Brahms #1 was one of the big surprises to the experts that I've read write about it, but unfortunately I don't really know anything about music in a technical sense, so I don't know why. To me, it sounds further back in time than Brahms #1, and indeed it is!)

Okay. Well, the first movement of Brahms's First was already finished by 1860, I believe. Then this composer is rather original. There is a Danish composer, apart from Gaade, who was also around at the the time, Hartmann (not the 20th century German). But I don't know whether he wrote any symphonies. Gaade did...

[JoshLilly]

J.P. Hartmann's 2 Symphonies are available on CD! He died just before the 20th century at the age of about 95 (1805-1900).
Of Niels Gade, 8 Symphonies survive, but I'm not sure how many he composed.

[rappy]

Lachner maybe?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Perhaps composers in Brahms's circle - Grimm, or Dietrich?

[(poco) Sforzando]

Hmmm, I'm not sure what clues would be helpful. I'm hoping to get more people to listen first.

I'll say, Brahms thought very highly of the symphonies of this person - or, at least, this person's last 2 symphonies, not sure about the rest - and was familiar with them before embarking on his own Symphony #1 in C minor. That should help with the dating a bit!  (That this music predates Brahms #1 was one of the big surprises to the experts that I've read write about it, but unfortunately I don't really know anything about music in a technical sense, so I don't know why. To me, it sounds further back in time than Brahms #1, and indeed it is!)

OK, so that tells me I was correct about the period and probably the nationality. The next logical step is to see what Austro-German symphonists from 1840-60 Brahms might have listened to. Brahms did admire Karl Goldmark, but none of the other details lines up.

[JoshLilly]

An impressive guess! If you've heard Lachner's Symphony #5 of the 1830s, this is an especially good guess. But no, this wasn't Lachner. Or Gade, or J.P. Hartmann.

This person knew Brahms. Dietrich is a great guess, but his sole (great!!) symphony is already out there, and is a more traditional work in D minor. I'm not familiar with Grimm at all, so no.

Goldmark's lost first symphony would be a good guess, also! Wouldn't it be great if that were recovered? Yes it would, but alas, that happy event has not yet come. It is not any of Goldmark's 3 symphonies.

I'll give a further hint: the two movements are from two different symphonies, written about 20 years apart. As you may guess, the 20 minute first movement is the later one, the scherzo from the earlier. Neither is of this composer's first completed symphony, so any composer that wrote only one or two symphonies can be eliminated.

Ah, further... I knew Brahms worked on his 1st symphony for a long time, but I didn't know he'd completed the first movement by 1860. If that's the case, then he couldn't have been familiar with the later of these two works by that time, at least, he didn't hear more than the 2-pianos draft edition. My apologies on that error.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Okay. Well, the first movement of Brahms's First was already finished by 1860, I believe.

The earliest sketches for Brahms 1 date from 1862. The work was finished in 1876.

[JoshLilly]

Eeeehh, then it's unknown whether the later of these two symphonies predates Brahms' first draft of the first movement of his. It's a close thing, which gives away the unknown dating of it (possibly started in 1861 to its 1865 publication). That's one mystery solved!

[The new erato]

Raff?

[Gurn Blanston]

Rheinberger

[JoshLilly]

Raff?

Not Rheinberger.

[The new erato]

Not Rheinberger.

Overlookedyour first point....these threads are growing too long. Herzogenberg?