Europe at War

Started by Que, February 20, 2022, 12:59:09 AM

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absolutelybaching

Quote from: Florestan on Today at 08:42:49 AMMy point exactly.

I do tell and do enjoy jokes about Hungarians, Roma people, Jews, Scotttish people, Romanian people, Italians and what not.

I've always taught, and I do teach, and I am teaching, ny son that we are all human beings, no matter the color of our skin, or the language we talk, or the religion we believe/not believe in.

The burning of a religious text is a clear, obvious and incontrovertible indication that one not only hates that particular religion, but that they do want to publicly show their hate. And if they burn it in front of an embassy of a nation whose vast majority profess that religion, then it is a clear, obvious and incontrovertible indication that one hates that nation, too.

That any nation calling themselves civilized should allow such hateful behavior to go unchecked in the name of free speech leaves me truly speechless.

I don't agree.

One of the finest Supreme Court decisions in recent years was that it was OK for the Westboro Baptist Church, the most noxious den of repugnant vipers in existence, to picket funerals of Iraq war veterans with banners proclaiming 'God Hates Fags'. (Their rationale was, if I recall correctly, that if you died in service to the USA, that's God's punishment on the USA for being a fag-loving people. Something like that).

If free speech is just speech you are comfortable with, it means nothing. Free speech that has constitutional backing has to be speech you find utterly repellant -and would stil fight to the death for the right of the speaker to say it.

I'm gay. The Westboro church deserve to boil for an unfeasibly long time in a lake of bubbling sulphur for their disgusting assertions of pretend-divine revelation. But the fact that the Supreme Court of the USA defended their right to be vile fills me with joy.

The burning of a religious text should indicate nothing more than that you might be cold, or that you vehemently disagree with the tenets of that particular religion. You cannot logically or philosophically deduce the reasons for me setting something alight a priori. Meanwhile, the Supreme Court says, if you burn it on the streets of New York in the middle of Hanukah or Ramadan or Easter, you're entirely entitled to do so -and that's an absolute good. Hating something is protected in the USA, as it should be everywhere. Pieces of paper or parchment do not deserve, nor gain, constitutional protection in the USA -nor should they anywhere else.

Unless I come at you, personally, with pitchforks or AK47s: suck it up. I disagree with you: tough. I hate everything you stand for: tough. So long as my disagreement and hatred are constrained within the limits of civil discourse: live with it.
It is cruel, you know, that music should be so beautiful. (Benjamin Britten)

Florestan

Quote from: absolutelybaching on Today at 11:27:07 AMI don't agree.

You are absolutey free to disagree.

QuoteI'm gay.

I could have bet on it.

I couldn't care less.
"Art is no excuse for boring people." - Jules Renard

"Melody is the essence of music." - Mozart

Florestan

Quote from: absolutelybaching on Today at 11:27:07 AMSo long as my disagreement and hatred are constrained within the limits of civil discourse: live with it.

What if, as is often the case, the limits of civil discourse are trespassed? What then, pray tell? Who is entitled, if anybody, to keep one's discourse within the limits oi civility?
"Art is no excuse for boring people." - Jules Renard

"Melody is the essence of music." - Mozart

absolutelybaching

Quote from: Florestan on Today at 12:01:39 PMWhat if, as is often the case, the limits of civil discourse are trespassed? What then, pray tell? Who is entitled, if anybody, to keep one's discourse within the limits oi civility?


The limits of civil discourse are that one should not feel imminently threatened, or actually be threatened.
That you are offended or your feelings are hurt: tough luck.
Should your speech involve incitement to violence, or threaten violence, or be part of an acutally violent act, then you suffer the legal consequences. Short of that, you are good to go, no matter how much my feelings may be hurt.

I don't know that it is "often the case" that the limits of civil discourse are often trespassed. I've frequently had 'eff off fag' shouted at me, but I've not often felt that this would translate into actually getting out of their car and pummelling me to the ground. I think it quite rare that even virulent speech trangresses those particular boundaries.
It is cruel, you know, that music should be so beautiful. (Benjamin Britten)

Madiel

Quote from: 71 dB on Today at 04:11:43 AMAre you saying I am not allowed to destroy my STAR WARS blu-rays, because Disney owns the copyrights?  ???

I'm saying that you don't own Star Wars. Which would be equivalent to what you said about owning holy scriptures.
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Madiel

#5285
Quote from: Fëanor on Today at 05:09:38 AMI agree that's hypocritical -- someone ought to go and burn a Tanakh in from of the Israeli embassy just to put the matter to the test in the courts.

Well OK, I'm mostly kidding.  However in principle I defend to right of anyone to criticize their own or anyone else's religion:  it might be hate speech in a specific context but it isn't inherently so.  What are we to make of the laws of a country like Pakistan were it is a capital offence to "offend" the Prophet or sully the Qur'an?

Burning a book is not "criticism".

Edit: nor is it "speech", despite the attempts of American courts to extend this concept to the point where interpretative dance probably counts.
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Madiel

Quote from: BasilValentine on Today at 06:00:58 AMFlag burning is legal in the US. No one is required to recite the pledge of allegiance. No one is required to worship veterans. I can burn a stack of bibles without repercussions.  In fact, a local thrift store gives bibles away for free and I use those thin crispy pages as kindling in my wood stove. Have you seen the hilarious new trend of satanists delivering opening prayers at school board meetings?

Perhaps every culture has its superstitions. It's the ones willing to kill over them that concern me.



I wasn't talking about whether it was legal. There are plenty of things that are legal that can get you into a lot of trouble with people, rather than the law.
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BasilValentine

Quote from: absolutelybaching on Today at 12:30:27 PMThe limits of civil discourse are that one should not feel imminently threatened, or actually be threatened.
That you are offended or your feelings are hurt: tough luck.
Should your speech involve incitement to violence, or threaten violence, or be part of an acutally violent act, then you suffer the legal consequences. Short of that, you are good to go, no matter how much my feelings may be hurt.

I don't know that it is "often the case" that the limits of civil discourse are often trespassed. I've frequently had 'eff off fag' shouted at me, but I've not often felt that this would translate into actually getting out of their car and pummelling me to the ground. I think it quite rare that even virulent speech trangresses those particular boundaries.

I agree in principle with this and your other recent posts. My one hesitation is in knowing how to address stochastic terrorism as practiced by prominent political figures, if indeed there is  anything that can or should be done about it.

Madiel

USA politics is a toxic cesspool. The USA allows all sorts of speech that is completely unacceptable in other countries. The two things are not unrelated.
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Todd

The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

71 dB

#5290
Quote from: Madiel on Today at 01:20:07 PMI'm saying that you don't own Star Wars. Which would be equivalent to what you said about owning holy scriptures.

If you burn a book, you burn one copy of book which hopefully is your property you have paid for. It is not burning the content. The "content" (intellectual property) is in possession of the copyright owner, safe and sound.. I don't own Star Wars, but I am allowed to destroy the Blu-rays I have bought and paid for if I want (I don't). I am also allowed to burn the books I own. Then again, I don't own any "holy books."

I haven't talked about owning holy scriptures. Who "owns" the rights to holy books anyway? Who has the right to print copies of them and sell them? This is all about BURNING BOOKS YOU OWN.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW track "Jazzz"

LKB

Quote from: Florestan on Today at 10:28:58 AMLadies and gentlemen,

I just made Todd reply anything other than "Incorrect."

Let's party!





Accidents happen, I'm sure he'll recover soon enough.
Mit Flügeln, die ich mir errungen...

LKB

Quote from: Todd on Today at 08:41:06 AMYour hypotheticals are detached from reality.

The diplomatic fuss between Turkey and Sweden is not really about Koran burning.  That is a convenient public pretext.  The most substantive public issue involves Turkey's claims of Sweden harboring political enemies of Turkey (eg, Gülenists).  Another obvious motive of Erdoğan is to leverage anti-Western sentiment in his country to deflect from domestic issues, such as obscene inflation and botched economic policies across the board.  There is also a strong possibility that Erdoğan sees Sweden as a threat to the Turkish arms industry.  Sweden has one of the most advanced arms industries in Europe, and full integration into NATO would mean that Swedish arms would be more widely sold, potentially eating into Turkey's market share before it could grow its non-NATO market sufficiently.   

Canada and Romania do not have similar issues to work through.

First sentence: Incorrect.

The rest of the post is accurate.
Mit Flügeln, die ich mir errungen...

LKB

Quote from: Madiel on Today at 01:22:38 PMI wasn't talking about whether it was legal. There are plenty of things that are legal that can get you into a lot of trouble with people, rather than the law.

Here you've struck upon the greatest flaw of our species:

Emotion trump's everything.
Mit Flügeln, die ich mir errungen...

Todd

The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

Madiel

#5295
Quote from: 71 dB on Today at 03:29:08 PMIf you burn a book, you burn one copy of book which hopefully is your property you have paid for. It is not burning the content. The "content" (intellectual property) is in possession of the copyright owner, safe and sound.. I don't own Star Wars, but I am allowed to destroy the Blu-rays I have bought and paid for if I want (I don't). I am also allowed to burn the books I own. Then again, I don't own any "holy books."

I haven't talked about owning holy scriptures. Who "owns" the rights to holy books anyway? Who has the right to print copies of them and sell them? This is all about BURNING BOOKS YOU OWN.

Oh please. You know as well as I do that burning a copy of the Quran in public is not about disposing of one personal copy. And you didn't say he burnt a book. Maybe you should go back and look at the actual phrasing you used, because neither you nor anyone else who was the audience for the stunt interpreted it as being about burning the pages of that one physical object.

If you want to trash your Star Wars DVD at home, fine. But don't try to tell me that's no different to taking your DVD that you own to the car park in front of Lucasfilm headquarters and driving over it with a tractor, just because the physical result is the same. Such a claim is technically correct and yet also completely disingenuous.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

71 dB

I'm done with the book burning thing.
Spatial distortion is a serious problem deteriorating headphone listening.
Crossfeeders reduce spatial distortion and make the sound more natural
and less tiresome in headphone listening.

My Sound Cloud page <-- NEW track "Jazzz"

Madiel

Quote from: 71 dB on Today at 04:41:19 PMI'm done with the book burning thing.


Just so long as you grasp that when and where you perform an action makes a difference.

As a gay man I'm grateful I have the legal right to have sex with another man. But I understand that, like everyone else who is allowed to have sex, this does not mean there are no restrictions about when and where I have sex.

Feel free to burn books that you own in the privacy of your own home.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!