What are you currently reading?

[Cato]

What a pleasure to revisit this - first time in 50 years. What poetry! Even in translation it's astonishing. I've just finished Bk 2 - the Trojan horse.

Compared with other epics - Homer, Mahabharata, the Samuel and Kings in the OT - it feels less alien, more like my world. Why that is I can't say, because there's gods and violence aplenty - it may be that the English school system that I suffered inculcated Augustinian values.

it has often been noted by Classicists in modern times how "contemporary" Vergil's sentiments and style are!

And yes, Robert Fagles is an excellent translator!

And I would hope that your school inculcated the Virtues of Saint Augustine into its students!    😇 

@Cato What do you think of the word "faggotology". I'll look in the OED supplements later, see if it's found its way in there.

Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus has the following line:

"What fool hath added water to the sea, or carried a faggot to bright-burning Troy?"

I doubt that the word in question refers to the study of a bundle of sticks for fire fuel.

I suppose one could attempt to coin a better word from Latin and Ancient Greek words, which could be very precise about the topic's assorted behaviors.

Otherwise, I find the word unpleasant.

[Mandryka]

Otherwise, I find the word unpleasant.

Yes, I was surprised that by the word, and faggot meaning homosexual (pejoratively) isn't British at all. For us, a faggot is a sort of disgusting meatball made with gross things from the inside of a pig.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(food)

[Mandryka]

And I would hope that your school inculcated the Virtues of Saint Augustine into its students!    😇 

Well having just finished Bk 4 I take it back. I'd have stayed in Carthage. Love beats duty! (Especially with that curse.)

It must be fantastic to teach this to teenagers. I envy you that.

[Brian]

Yes, I was surprised that by the word, and faggot meaning homosexual (pejoratively) isn't British at all. For us, a faggot is a sort of disgusting meatball made with gross things from the inside of a pig.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(food)

As an American visiting Wales, I saw this on a menu and couldn't order it because I didn't want to say the word. Now your description makes me feel much better!

[Cato]

Well having just finished Bk 4 I take it back. I'd have stayed in Carthage. Love beats duty! (Especially with that curse.)

It must be fantastic to teach this to teenagers. I envy you that.

That was always a big question: does Aeneas have free will, or is he a puppet of the gods/Fate?


I taught Advanced Placement Latin IV now and then, and, yes, it was fun to look at Vergil's style (e.g. interlocking adjectives and nouns *), as well as the themes in the story.


*  e.g.  (I am making this up, as my Vergil books are packed away right now, for we have remodeling going on!)

Tumultuantem bonus ducere canem vir conatur.

Here I have "interlocked" everything: the adjectives and nouns, i.e. "tumultuantem" (struggling, badly  behaving) modifies "canem" (dog), "bonus" (good) modifies "vir" (man), and the dependent infinitive "ducere" (to lead, control) goes with "conatur (tries)."

[Florestan]

Yes, I was surprised that by the word, and faggot meaning homosexual (pejoratively) isn't British at all. For us, a faggot is a sort of disgusting meatball made with gross things from the inside of a pig.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faggot_(food)

Faggots or savoury ducks are meatballs made from minced off-cuts and offal (especially pork, and traditionally pig's heart, liver and fatty belly meat or bacon) mixed with herbs and sometimes bread crumbs.

Sounds okay to me. Nothing I haven't eaten yet, or dislike.

[Cato]

I cannot place more than one line at a time here!  And now FORBIDDEN 403 comes up for the translation! 

[Florestan]

Tumultuantem bonus ducere canem vir conatur.

Here I have "interlocked" everything: the adjectives and nouns, i.e. "tumultuantem" (struggling, badly  behaving) modifies "canem" (dog), "bonus" (good) modifies "vir" (man), and the dependent
infinitive "ducere" (to lead, control) goes with "conatur (tries)."

Poetically it sounds very good, but what person in their right minds would have said that in a conversation, instead of

Vir bonus conatur ducere canem tumultuantem? (I specfically use the correct word order in Romanian)

I mean, I bet even native Latin speakers may have had to take their time trying to make sense of Latin poetry. 

[Cato]

The program is refusing to print the translation!  Just nutzoid!

[Cato]

Poetically it sounds very good, but what person in their right minds would have said that in a conversation, instead of

Vir bonus conatur ducere canem tumultuantem? (I specfically use the correct word order in Romanian)

I mean, I bet even native Latin speakers may have had to take their time trying to make sense of Latin poetry. 

My professors always claimed that a Roman would have read right through such a sentence with no problem!  The Letters of Pliny/Trajan are not immune to what we consider to be a complicated puzzle!

[Cato]

"The good man..is trying to control...the disobedient dog."

FINALLY!  Five attempts!             

Synonyms for "disobedient" brought up FORBIDDEN 403 !

[Florestan]

My professors always claimed that a Roman would have read right through such a sentence with no problem!  The Letters of Pliny/Trajan are not immune to what we consider to be a complicated puzzle!

An educated Roman sure (and those letters were written by educated people for educated people), but what about a Roman illiterate peasant or carpenter? Are we sure that they would have instantly understood it at first hearing? After all, the Romance vernaculars were born precisely from the alteration/simplification of Latin by the mass of common speakers, right?

Btw, are you aware of any Romance language other than Romanian which has preserved the vocative case? AFAIK, there isn't any.

[Florestan]

"The good man..is trying to control...the disobedient dog."

FINALLY!  Five attempts!             

Synonyms for "disobedient" brought up FORBIDDEN 403 !

You disobeyed the forum rules. 

[Mandryka]

That was always a big question: does Aeneas have free will, or is he a puppet of the gods/Fate?


I taught Advanced Placement Latin IV now and then, and, yes, it was fun to look at Vergil's style (e.g. interlocking adjectives and nouns *), as well as the themes in the story.


*  e.g.  (I am making this up, as my Vergil books are packed away right now, for we have remodeling going on!)

Tumultuantem bonus ducere canem vir conatur.

Here I have "interlocked" everything: the adjectives and nouns, i.e. "tumultuantem" (struggling, badly  behaving) modifies "canem" (dog), "bonus" (good) modifies "vir" (man), and the dependent infinitive "ducere" (to lead, control) goes with "conatur (tries)."

Well, I've finally got the message. Publius Vergilius Maro. I don't know if I ever knew that or whether I've just forgotten (And let's not get into Plato on knowledge and recollection in The Theaetetus (not least because, even though I've taught it, I've now forgotten all the details.) )

[Florestan]

In Spanish and Portuguese, the bassoon is called fagot and fagote, respectively.

Fagot in Romanian as well.

[Cato]

An educated Roman sure (and those letters were written by educated people for educated people), but what about a Roman illiterate peasant or carpenter? Are we sure that they would have instantly understood it at first hearing? After all, the Romance vernaculars were born precisely from the alteration/simplification of Latin by the mass of common speakers, right?

Btw, are you aware of any Romance language other than Romanian which has preserved the vocative case? AFAIK, there isn't any.

1. No, we cannot be sure, but there is evidence from graffiti that Vergil was at times quoted by common people (given the locations) - ! - along with other writers, and that sometimes witticisms occurred by changing famous lines.

On the other hand, tombstone inscriptions, as well as graffiti, and other things do give evidence for the transformation of Latin into our modern Romance languages.

e.g.  Words like "Consul" and "Censor" have been found on monuments and tombstones with missing "N's" and a vowel change i.e. "Cosol" and "Cesor."  This shows that even at the time of Augustus or before, certain areas were "nasalizing" the "N" into oblivion.

2. No, as far as I know, only Romanian has preserved the Vocative.

Lithuanian, however, has preserved a "case system," 7 of them, with a Vocative Case and a Locative Case, the latter almost extinct in Latin in ancient times.

[Ganondorf]

Fagot in Romanian as well.

"fagotti" in Finnish.

[Philo]

So, I am an academic, and I began reading this for both methodological and methodical purposes, but it is also a pleasure read as it is outside my discipline, and while incisive is written with pleasure in mind.

In sum, it is an immigrant's tale with dense theory interleaved throughout. They call what they are doing a faggotology - think hagiography, but it feels much more akin to something in-between autobiography, autoethnography, and autobiomythgraphy.

I picked it up primarily as my positionality and theirs is near overlapping, and since I see myself so infrequently in the academy, I was immediately hooked and gravitated toward it.

It is a very frank book.

I've finished this book - my "fun" reads take me a bit of time to get through because one of the primary tasks of my job is keeping up with my own discipline, and even my discipline, Technical Communication, which is quite small, has at least four journals and two presses dedicated to it, lol.

In my opinion, the book fully collapses in the fifth chapter because this is when the author tries to do what they have been saying, and the gap between a person's competence and their performance is usually a chasm. This forum is a great example of high competence (knowledge of music) but low performance (ability to compose music) - the same thing happens here.

The fifth chapter it also becomes clear that this was likely the author trying to adapt their dissertation for a disciplined audience, and I just don't find their endeavor convincing. I do understand why they used the term faggotology, as it is what drew me to the book, and I suspect it is what drew others to the work, but the method isn't methodical, and it already exists in the literature - for example, this could be classed as an autoethnography, and I don't think anyone would object.

Also, swishology I think is far more fitting, given that their rhetoric is energetic and kinesthetic.

It also isn't as daring as I thought it might be, especially if you have read some of the "original" gay/queer theorists like Bersani or Edelman.

But, I got what I needed from it, so the trip was overall a valuable experience, and the writing is quite beautiful and poetic, so to read it is a pleasurable experience on its own. :-)

Next up, for fun, is Bradley's Anteaesthetics

[Florestan]

In my opinion, the book fully collapses in the fifth chapter because this is when the author tries to do what they have been saying, and the gap between a person's competence and their performance is usually a chasm. This forum is a great example of high competence (knowledge of music) but low performance (ability to compose music) - the same thing happens here

Save two or three people who are composers, nobody here ever claimed to possess that ability. The analogy is flawed. You might as well say that someone who knows their Dickens inside out performs low because they can't write novels, even if that's something they never claimed to be able to do, let alone tried to do.

[Mandryka]

That was always a big question: does Aeneas have free will, or is he a puppet of the gods/Fate?


 

Ah yes, he says he was compelled by the gods to Dido when their paths cross in Hades -- I'm now half way through Bk 6.

I'm thinking of buying this, so please let me know if you've seen it or know of a better commentary for someone who's reading it in English translation.

https://blackwells.co.uk/bookshop/product/A-Companion-to-the-Aeneid-in-Translation-Volume-2-Books-1-6-by-Christopher-Tanfield/9781350157118?srsltid=AfmBOoodnbMiY2geYDApw5IodWw2nvODFeDSWisqFdfAWxH2MfYlS8a3