What are you currently reading?

[Florestan]

I read Nicolae Iorga's classic already in the 1990s and yes, am aware of Romania's Roman heritage. But the very name - Romania- is a 19th Century invention, isn't it?

România as the name of the country is indeed a 19-th century creation, but român/rumân for the people and românește/rumânește for the language are documented the 16th century, as well as the term Țeara Rumânească, ie The Romanian Land.

[Jo498]

Thanks.  I realize how long Latin survived in the professions and academia, just was not sure of its use in actual government.

I think one reason might also be that some regional (slavic) languages were hardly standardized until rather late. Of course this is a feedback loop: if anything official/printed is in Latin or French or German or whatever, it will take a long time for standardized written Polish or whatever to develop.
Again it is interesting that the early missionaries (like Cyril and Method or (W)Ulfilas mentioned in the article Florestan linked) took a different approach, they helped developing alphabets for illiterate cultures and translated parts of the bible into the regional languages.
(This is still a difference between the orthodox churches that use local languages (or ancient versions of some local languages) and the Roman catholic church that has been a Latin church since late antiquity. Of course this also is because there is no orthodox Pope.)
And I also have read what Christo hints at that in the 18th/19th century Latin was often a compromise because German would have felt oppressive to the regional lower administrators and Czech or whatever would have been too separatist and inacceptable to the German speaking higher bureaucrats.

[Bogey]

Just finished this.  Beyond excellent.  On to the next installment.

[kishnevi]

Just finished this.  Beyond excellent.  On to the next installment.

Hullo! Did not know that one existed. I've only read the "trilogy".  Must investigate.

BTW, you won't fully understand and appreciate the first book of the Trilogy until you've read the last book....

[Karl Henning]

Hullo! Did not know that one existed. I've only read the "trilogy".  Must investigate.

BTW, you won't fully understand and appreciate the first book of the Trilogy until you've read the last book....

I do feel that I want to re-read it . . . fond memories of inhaling the trilogy when I was a teenager.

[Bogey]

There are two prequels and I believe two sequels to the series to bring it to seven....I believe.

[Florestan]

România as the name of the country is indeed a 19-th century creation, but român/rumân for the people and românește/rumânește for the language are documented the 16th century, as well as the term Țeara Rumânească, ie The Romanian Land.

The strong Roman identity retained by Romanians throughout the centuries can be also seen in their onomastics: arguably the only Romance people in which Traian and Constantin are common forenames (the latter being also a common surname in the form of Constantinescu; cf. former Romanian presidents Emil Constantinescu and Traian Băsescu --- the very common suffix -escu, of uncertain etymology, originally denoted paternal filiation, as in Emil son of Constantin).

[Bogey]

Also finishing up this:



Peter David knew from my comic collecting days, so thought I would give one of his Star Trek novels a whirl. Just decent enough to keep me reading.

[Christo]

The strong Roman identity retained by Romanians throughout the centuries can be also seen in their onomastics: arguably the only Romance people in which Traian and Constantin are common forenames (the latter being also a common surname in the form of Constantinescu; cf. former Romanian presidents Emil Constantinescu and Traian Băsescu --- the very common suffix -escu, of uncertain etymology, originally denoted paternal filiation, as in Emil son of Constantin).

Come on, that "tradition" no doubt only started in the 19th c. as well, about the same time Hungarian boys were named Attila and Georgian and Finnish girls Nino and Aino, respectively. Or would you suggest in the Romanian case there's a real, continuous, tradition? I myself never saw any example in Europe, not even in the Greek case.

And as to the historical "Țările Române" or Românească that I saw much referred to in the Romanian history that I read, what we really need to know is what exact meaning this terminology in these 16th c. sources bore. In any case, my wild guess would be that they are a typical modern and premodern (Renaissance) interpretation of history, not a traditional one. No doubt, you know a better answer. 

[kishnevi]

The strong Roman identity retained by Romanians throughout the centuries can be also seen in their onomastics: arguably the only Romance people in which Traian and Constantin are common forenames (the latter being also a common surname in the form of Constantinescu; cf. former Romanian presidents Emil Constantinescu and Traian Băsescu --- the very common suffix -escu, of uncertain etymology, originally denoted paternal filiation, as in Emil son of Constantin).

Trajan I will allow you, but Constantine had a long and illustratious use in the Greek speaking Roman Empire, and then a prominent use in Russia. If nought else: an older brother, son, and grandson of Tsar Nikolai I Pavlovich were all named Constantine, all of course related to the great granddaughter of Nikolai who happened to marry King Ferdinand of Romania.  That name had much closer sources of propogation

[Ken B]

As to the thesis, I agree that it is hard to imagine anything new that could make a comparable improvement in my standard of living as having electricity, plumbing, vaccines and antibiotics

Wait until you see what Intersectional Queer Theory does for you!

The book sounds like it strokes some of my prejudices. In particular my belief the 19th was the century of the most dramatic and fundamental change, and that most people don't appreciate it. I recommend the book Inventing the Victorians, which debunks many myths.

[Ken B]

That I really don't know. Maybe Jo can help.

Three comments.

1. England was not an empire (at least for the time frame you considered).

2. Norman French was itself an acculturation phenomenon since the Normans were originally Vikings who did not speak a iota of French.

3. French itself is a curious case: a Romance language which derives its name from a Germanic tribe which originally did not speak a iota of Latin.

The (unbiased and honest) study of the Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages is actually the best antidote for nationalism that I am aware of. 

Last sentence: odd to read that Andrei, from a Romanian nationalist!

[kishnevi]

Wait until you see what Intersectional Queer Theory does for you!

The book sounds like it strokes some of my prejudices. In particular my belief the 19th was the century of the most dramatic and fundamental change, and that most people don't appreciate it. I recommend the book Inventing the Victorians, which debunks many myths.

I agree.
Thought experiment
Imagine yourself talking with someone from 1900.  You might need long explanations but you would find yourself able to describe our technology in terms of 1900 technology, as extensions or adaptations of things already existing in 1900, with the possible exception of perhaps nuclear physics and computers.

Then imagine that person from 1900 trying to describe the technology of his era to a person from 1800. He would have a long heavy slog before he  finished, because so much of 1900 stuff had no real analog in 1800.

And finally, have that person from 1800 describe the technology of 1800 to a person from 1700.  It would be a fairly brief conversation, but not much actually changed.  Even the first phases of the Industrial Revolution were not that,er, revolutionary.

[Jo498]

This book sounds interesting and I already seem to agree with most of its claims. What is not mentioned in the review linked (so I don't know how much the book says about it) is the obvious connection with fossil fuels powering that growth. This fact might be one explanation why it speeded up in the century from ca. 1860 - 1960. The peak everything crowd would point out the use of fossil fuels as the most salient factor, not invention.

And it has been fairly clear since a few decades that real invention and growth have slowed. The fastest practical airplane travel speed has not changed for decades. The fastest practical trains (TGV, Shinkansen) are ca. 1980 technology. In these two fields it is also interesting that more advanced technology was tried and practically abolished because the modest gains were not worth the expense (Concorde and magnetic monorail trains). With automobiles it is even worse because heavier and more luxurious cars eat up all the savings from more efficient engines and jammed traffic makes faster cars moot anway.
Space tech has basically stagnated since then as well.
It is only computers and communications that have advanced since the 1980s. And a lot of this goes into fairly silly stuff, basically entertainment, while some other applications (like fast computer-based stock trading) might actually be more of a problem than a gain.

[ritter]

Trajan I will allow you, but Constantine had a long and illustratious use in the Greek speaking Roman Empire, and then a prominent use in Russia. If nought else: an older brother, son, and grandson of Tsar Nikolai I Pavlovich were all named Constantine, all of course related to the great granddaughter of Nikolai who happened to marry King Ferdinand of Romania.  That name had much closer sources of propogation

And at the other end of the Roman world, Hispania (now known as Spain), the name Constantino, if not very widespread, is not uncommon by any means. And as of late, the name Adrián has become very popular (but that is a new development).

I get a feeling that the "romanness" of the Eastern part of the empire (as opposed to the West)  is being slightly exaggerated here....

[Florestan]

Trajan I will allow you, but Constantine had a long and illustratious use in the Greek speaking Roman Empire, and then a prominent use in Russia.

Did I say it is a uniquely Romanian name? No. All I said was that Constantin is much more common in Romania than in all other Romance people.

Last sentence: odd to read that Andrei, from a Romanian nationalist!

I am not a nationalist, but it seems that these days the mere mention of nations, their origins and history is politically incorrect. 

And at the other end of the Roman world, Hispania (now known as Spain), the name Constantino, if not very widespread, is not uncommon by any means.

Quick, my friend: how many Constantino do you know, personally or otherwise? In my family I personally know three from my paternal line, one from my maternal line and one from my wife's family. I can cite additionally Constantin Silvestri, Constantin Lipatti (that's how he was baptized; Dinu is to Constantin what, say, Joe is to Joseph), Constantin Marin, Constantin Brăiloiu, Constantin Dimitrescu --- and that's limiting myself to music only. And let's not forget Constantin Brâncuși.

I get a feeling that the "romanness" of the Eastern part of the empire (as opposed to the West)  is being slightly exaggerated here....

I don't know what you mean by "Romanness", but from my point of view it has nothing, or very little, to do with ethnicity. Since 212, when Caracalla's Constitutio Antoniniana granted full Roman citizenship to all free men in the Enpire, it became a strictly political marker, not an exclusively ethnic one as it had been before.

I honestly don't know where you get the idea that I somehow oppose the "Romanness" of East to that of the West. If anything, it's the West who, for too long and for political reasons, denied the East its "Romanness". And that was indeed some exaggerated nerve, to see some upstart Germanic kings denying "Romanness" to the direct successors of Octavian Augustus in unbroken line residing in Cosntantinople.

[ritter]

Quick, my friend: how many Constantino do you know, personally or otherwise? In my family I personally know three from my paternal line, one from my maternal line and one from my wife's family. I can cite additionally Constantin Silvestri, Constantin Lipatti (that's how he was baptized; Dinu is to Constantin what, say, Joe is to Joseph), Constantin Marin, Constantin Brăiloiu, Constantin Dimitrescu --- and that's limiting myself to music only. And let's not forget Constantin Brâncuși.

I don't know what you mean by "Romanness", but from my point of view it has nothing, or very little, to do with ethnicity. Since 212, when Caracalla's Constitutio Antoniniana granted full Roman citizenship to all free men in the Enpire, it became a strictly political marker, not an exclusively ethnic one as it had been before.

I honestly don't know where you get the idea that I somehow oppose the "Romanness" of East to that of the West. If anything, it's the West who, for too long and for political reasons, denied the East its "Romanness". And that was indeed some exaggerated nerve, to see some upstart Germanic kings denying "Romanness" to the direct successors of Octavian Augustus in unbroken line residing in Cosntantinople.

The directory of my company lists 39 Constantino (in Spain and South America), of which I know 3 personally, plus another one who left a couple of years ago., then there's the late TV presenter Constantino Romero (who had an inimitable voice). Quick enough? 

I understand your point concerning the Barbarian upstarts in the West, and I actually had a classmate back in Caracas who could claim descent from the Byzantine emperors (she was a Ghica-Cantacuzino), although many historians say such claims are unfounded (or rather, that the descent was fabricated by these families in the 16th century to boost their prestige).   

Of course, no old family in Spain claims such a thing, and (surprisingly) they usually don't even wish to, brandishing "their good visigothic stock" instead (but just looking at some of them, there's as much Jewish and Arab blood running through their veins as anything else).

But still, I really cannot see any closer cultural affinity to "the spirit of Rome" in Cluj than in Córdoba (to take two originally Roman cities at random). This reminds me of discussions I had as a teenager with a friend of mine (son of Italian immigrants to Venezuela) who still believed that modern Italy was the heir to classical Rome (all that Mussolini-inspired gibberish). And my reply was basically the same: there's as much of a Roman in a modern day inhabitant of Tarragona than in one of Naples. In any case, I'm (obviously) not an expert in such matters.

Of course, we are the "reserva espritual de Occidente", but that's another story.

[Florestan]

Come on, that "tradition" no doubt only started in the 19th c. as well, about the same time Hungarian boys were named Attila and Georgian and Finnish girls Nino and Aino, respectively. Or would you suggest in the Romanian case there's a real, continuous, tradition?

Oh, I certainly do not claim the there is a continuous tradition of naming Romanian children Constantin which dates back to Constantin the Great's days, for the simple reason that there were no Romanians back then. But for instance Constantin Cantacuzino (1598 - 1663), an influent and powerful aristocrat, Constantin Șerban (d. 1682) and Constantin Brâncoveanu (1654 - 1714 ), Princes of Wallachia and Moldavia, were not a 19th century creation.

BTW, Attila is a Gothic name meaning "little father"; his ethnicity itself is uncertain, and even it were indeed a Hun, Hungarians are not descendants of Huns. Árpád and the Magyars, on the other hand...

And as to the historical "Țările Române" or Românească that I saw much referred to in the Romanian history that I read, what we really need to know is what exact meaning this terminology in these 16th c. sources bore.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Romania

\It's Wikip[edia, I know, but the article is well researched.

[Florestan]

But still, I really cannot see any closer cultural affinity to "the spirit of Rome" in Cluj than in Córdoba (to take two originally Roman cities at random).

What is "the spirit of Rome", anyway? In the case of Romania, my point is about linguistics and a "folklorically" preserved sense of continuity, not about metaphysics.

The directory of my company lists 39 Constantino (in Spain and South America), of which I know 3 personally, plus another one who left a couple of years ago., then there's the late TV presenter Constantino Romero (who had an inimitable voice). Quick enough? 

Quick and fair enough.

[North Star]

BTW, Attila is a Gothic name meaning "little father"; his ethnicity itself is uncertain, and even it were indeed a Hun, Hungarians are not descendants of Huns. Árpád and the Magyars, on the other hand...

And the Huns were an army with any number of different ethnicities represented, of course.