What are you currently reading?

[Florestan]

Not without connection to Silence, this illumminating article on Kierkegaard's conception of Philosophy, Theology and Christianity:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334516766_Kierkegaard%27s_Existential_Conception_of_the_Relationship_Between_Philosophy_and_Christianity

(Kierkegaard being my favorite Protestant thinker by a wide margin)

[Florestan]

Really, this Shusaku Endo is hands down my greatest literary discovery of this year and quite possibly the most disturbing and thought-provoking writer I've encountered since I can't remember when. (sic!)

Hat tip to vers la flamme and Dry Brett Kavanaugh for that!

Now I must read Graham Greene (believe it or not, I haven't read a single line of his till now).

[vers la flamme]

Really, this Shusaku Endo is hands down my greatest literary discovery of this year and quite possibly the most disturbing and thought-provoking writer I've encountered since I can't remember when. (sic!)

Hat tip to vers la flamme and Dry Brett Kavanaugh for that!

Now I must read Graham Greene (believe it or not, I haven't read a single line of his till now).

Very happy to hear you've enjoyed Endo's Silence. It was similarly eye opening for me. As for Greene, I just read two of his books and enjoyed both: The Heart of the Matter and The End of the Affair. But he's written so many books.

[Florestan]

Very happy to hear you've enjoyed Endo's Silence. It was similarly eye opening for me.

I would be very, very interested in your thoughts on what I wrote about Silence.

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,68.msg1366497.html#msg1366497

Do you agree even partially? Do you completely disagree?  Either way I thank you in advance for expressing your thoughts.

As for Greene, I just read two of his books and enjoyed both: The Heart of the Matter and The End of the Affair. But he's written so many books.

I just bought The Power and the Glory.

[vers la flamme]

I would be very, very interested in your thoughts on what I wrote about Silence.

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,68.msg1366497.html#msg1366497

Do you agree even partially? Do you completely disagree?  Either way I thank you in advance for expressing your thoughts.

Give me some time to collect my thoughts and get back to you on that.

I just bought The Power and the Glory.

I read this in high school and I have it on my shelf, ready for a reread in the near-ish future. It's a good one, and actually rather similar to Silence if I recall correctly.

[Florestan]

Give me some time to collect my thoughts and get back to you on that.

Take all the time you need, my friend!

I read this in high school and I have it on my shelf, ready for a reread in the near-ish future. It's a good one, and actually rather similar to Silence if I recall correctly.

Excellent! I'll start reading it asap.

[vers la flamme]

Spoiler alert in case you haven't read Silence and want to.

This idea crossed my mind too, but on close inspection it doesn't hold much water.

Rodrigues did not set out for Japan in order to convert them; he did it first in order to help those already converted, who were left without priests, baptism, confession and church services, and second in order to find out what really happened to Ferreira. During the whole book he doesn't try to convert a single person, he only administers baptism to and hears confession from nominal Christians. Moreover, when Ferreira tells him that the Japanese Christians turned the Christian God into something else, believing in a wrong sort of god, he doesn't believe it. What you say about attempting to convert their belief- though the much of latter didn't appreciate his "help." might apply to St. Francis Xavier and his immediate followers, ie to the very first Christian missionaries to Japan. But then again, according to the book, the latter were actually succesful, particularly in the Nagasaki area, where at one time there were 400,000 Christians and the authorities were tolerant or even benevolent.

The dire circumstances of Rodrigues and the Japanese Christians were a direct result of harsh and cruel persecutions but the book is silent (pun) about what caused them. After all, the vast majority of Japanese Christians were poor and destitute peasants who barely made ends meet on a daily basis and desired nothing but to be left alone to peacefully live their miserable life . What extreme danger could they pose to the warlords, the authorities and the Buddhist hierarchy so that they had to be crushed mercilessly?

Inoue tells Rodrigues that he (Rodrigues) is directly responsible for the suffering of his fellow Christians and that if he hadn't come to Japan they woud have not suffered, but this is pure sophistry. Firstly, the persecutions began long before Rodrigues set foot on Japan soil; secondly, it wasn't on Rodrigues' orders that the peasants were crucified in the sea or hanged upside down, but on Inoue's. If the intention was to punish Rodrigues, or break down his will, why such cruelty against people who were not responsible for his deeds?

I don't think that Rodrigues had a messianic complex, either. Okay, maybe a little bit, early on in the book: he does seem to be a bit hung up on the concept of martyrdom, at least until his visions of which were completely shattered after seeing his new friends die brutally on the beach. Nor do I think that Rodrigues was completely misguided in his goal of going to Japan to help the persecuted Christians. While it's true that he never stated a goal of converting more Japanese to Christianity, I don't know if there's any Jesuit in the 17th century who didn't dream of a completely Christianized Japan, which probably in reality never could have happened. But I agree with you; I don't think that was ever really his direct goal.

The character of Inoue was fascinating: especially the whole Pilate connection. I need to brush up on my Gospels, but somehow the comparison feels incomplete. With Inoue, I don't think it was a "forgive them for they know not what they do" situation. But I am having a hard time piecing together his true motivations. I'm not convinced that he was just a violent sociopath or some demonic figure who just wanted to inflict suffering on people, but I'm also not convinced that he was a fervent believer in his own religion of Japanese Buddhism. Still trying to figure out who exactly he was in this book.

While the Japanese Christians as depicted in the book were, as you say, harmless peasants just wanting to live a life of peace and striving toward Christian salvation—it is not quite so simple in my view. Christianity indeed is an existential threat to Japan in the 17th century: a completely Christianized Japan could easily have become a vassal to the Portuguese empire. Obviously, the Japanese are not willing to give up their authority. I wonder if the persecution of Christians in Japan had much more to do with politics than any sense of religious conviction.

My favorite part of the book was Rodrigues' and Garrpe's brief ministry in the mountain shack outside the village. I found their small community of faith very honest and touching, independent of all sociopolitical and historical considerations.

I wonder if our Western perspective colors our interpretation of this wonderfully ambiguous book. Like you, I am a Christian, though surely not the greatest one in the world—I am not (yet) a churchgoer by any means. I like Greene's self identification, later in life, as a Catholic agnostic.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Gents, I appreciate your great posts of your thoughts. I will reply later. 
Florestan, again, delighted to hear that you find the book significant.

[Florestan]

Spoiler alert in case you haven't read Silence and want to.

Wow, that was quick! Thanks a lot!

I don't think that Rodrigues had a messianic complex, either. Okay, maybe a little bit, early on in the book: he does seem to be a bit hung up on the concept of martyrdom, at least until his visions of which were completely shattered after seeing his new friends die brutally on the beach. Nor do I think that Rodrigues was completely misguided in his goal of going to Japan to help the persecuted Christians. While it's true that he never stated a goal of converting more Japanese to Christianity, I don't know if there's any Jesuit in the 17th century who didn't dream of a completely Christianized Japan, which probably in reality never could have happened. But I agree with you; I don't think that was ever really his direct goal.

Agreed, completely.

A parallel could be draw with the case of Christianity in China. The Jesuit missionaries there were so succesful that they could have even converted the Imperial family themselves. If only the Pope would have approved (at the request of many Jesuits, first and foremost Matteo Ricci) of equating the Chinese cult of the ancestors with the Christian feast of the remembrance of the dead... Just imagine how a late 17-th century Christian China would have changed the world's history...

The character of Inoue was fascinating: especially the whole Pilate connection. I need to brush up on my Gospels, but somehow the comparison feels incomplete. With Inoue, I don't think it was a "forgive them for they know not what they do" situation. But I am having a hard time piecing together his true motivations. I'm not convinced that he was just a violent sociopath or some demonic figure who just wanted to inflict suffering on people, but I'm also not convinced that he was a fervent believer in his own religion of Japanese Buddhism. Still trying to figure out who exactly he was in this book.

Inoue is much worse than Pilate.

First and most important, Pilate himself did not find any fault whatsoever with Christ, sent Him to Herod and when Herod returned Him without any fault whatsoever too, he reluctantly ordered Christ to be harshly flogged --- but not deadly so. He was absolutely convinced that the Sanhedrin would be satisfied with that and no more. Pilate - Inoue 1-0.

Second, Pilate can at least have the (lame) excuse that he simply fulfilled the clearly and vividly expressed desire of the Jewish people assembled in Jerusalem at that particular time. He was fulfilling a democratically sanctioned mandate. Pilate - Inoue 2-0.

Thirdly, Pilate ordered the crucifixion of Jesus Christ alone; he did not order all of his followers to be crucified as well, nor did he see to it that while he was alive each and every Christian should be tortured in order to renounce the Christian faith. Pilate - Inoue 3-0

If you ask me, Pilate is guilty of general human weakness, but not of deliberate wickedness; on the contrary, Inoue is a strong, wicked man.

While the Japanese Christians as depicted in the book were, as you say, harmless peasants just wanting to live a life of peace and striving toward Christian salvation—it is not quite so simple in my view. Christianity indeed is an existential threat to Japan in the 17th century: a completely Christianized Japan could easily have become a vassal to the Portuguese empire. Obviously, the Japanese are not willing to give up their authority. I wonder if the persecution of Christians in Japan had much more to do with politics than any sense of religious conviction.

Yes, of course, I agree. Time and again, politics and religion are intermingled and the latter is more of a loser than the former.

My favorite part of the book was Rodrigues' and Garrpe's brief ministry in the mountain shack outside the village. I found their small community of faith very honest and touching, independent of all sociopolitical and historical considerations.

Yes, of course, agreed.

I wonder if our Western perspective colors our interpretation of this wonderfully ambiguous book.

Well, I'm not Western. I'm Eastern.

Both of them being misnomers, actually.

Like you, I am a Christian, though surely not the greatest one in the world—I am not (yet) a churchgoer by any means.

I am very glad you identify yourself as a Christian --- ie, a believer in Jesus Christ, albeit an imperfect one. So am I.

That's exactly what Silence questions: can one still be a Christian after one has formally renounced Christianity?

Do you have any answer?

[Florestan]

I like Greene's self identification, later in life, as a Catholic agnostic.

I can identify with that in one sense only: I have often doubt God's justice, but never His existence --- a powerful line from a Finnish Christian writer, Mikka Waltari.

[Stürmisch Bewegt]

Sometimes I wonder if there should be a thread entitled:  What Should We Be Reading?

I'd nominate this.  I'm nearing the conclusion of Céline's Journey to the End of the Night (English language edition, the French has too much slang I wasn't familiar with).  Not for the faint of heart.  So many quotable passages, so many insights political, social, psychological.  Even biological.  Eg :  "This body of ours, this disguise put on by common jumping molecules, is in constant revolt against the abominable farce of having to endure.  Our molecules, the dears, want to get lost in the universe as fast as they can!  It makes them miserable to be nothing but 'us', the jerks of infinity.  We'd burst if we had the courage, day after day we come very close to it. The atomic torture we love is so locked up inside us with our pride."  Interesting to me that more than one reviewer of the orig. in '32 recognized the author as fascist. 

[vers la flamme]

Wow, that was quick! Thanks a lot!

Agreed, completely.

A parallel could be draw with the case of Christianity in China. The Jesuit missionaries there were so succesful that they could have even converted the Imperial family themselves. If only the Pope would have approved (at the request of many Jesuits, first and foremost Matteo Ricci) of equating the Chinese cult of the ancestors with the Christian feast of the remembrance of the dead... Just imagine how a late 17-th century Christian China would have changed the world's history...

Inoue is much worse than Pilate.

First and most important, Pilate himself did not find any fault whatsoever with Christ, sent Him to Herod and when Herod returned Him without any fault whatsoever too, he reluctantly ordered Christ to be harshly flogged --- but not deadly so. He was absolutely convinced that the Sanhedrin would be satisfied with that and no more. Pilate - Inoue 1-0.

Second, Pilate can at least have the (lame) excuse that he simply fulfilled the clearly and vividly expressed desire of the Jewish people assembled in Jerusalem at that particular time. He was fulfilling a democratically sanctioned mandate. Pilate - Inoue 2-0.

Thirdly, Pilate ordered the crucifixion of Jesus Christ alone; he did not order all of his followers to be crucified as well, nor did he see to it that while he was alive each and every Christian should be tortured in order to renounce the Christian faith. Pilate - Inoue 3-0

If you ask me, Pilate is guilty of general human weakness, but not of deliberate wickedness; on the contrary, Inoue is a strong, wicked man.


Yes, of course, I agree. Time and again, politics and religion are intermingled and the latter is more of a loser than the former.

Yes, of course, agreed.

Well, I'm not Western. I'm Eastern.

Both of them being misnomers, actually.

I am very glad you identify yourself as a Christian --- ie, a believer in Jesus Christ, albeit an imperfect one. So am I.

That's exactly what Silence questions: can one still be a Christian after one has formally renounced Christianity?

Do you have any answer?

I apologize if I've caused any offense by suggesting we share certain aspects of perspective. I guess what I meant is that neither of us is Japanese, and we don't live in the time period in which the book is set, nor that in which it was written. Our environs are bound to influence our interpretation of a story. In any case, it appears we do agree on certain aspects of the book and its problems, at least superficially.

As for the "Catholic agnostic" bit, my tongue was in my cheek as I wrote that, as I'm sure was Greene's when he said that. Until recently, I would have identified as an atheist if prompted, but to be more truthful, religion was just not something that factored into my life; I was never part of a religious family outside of a devoutly Catholic grandmother who died when I was young. I have been trying to follow the teachings of Christ for roughly one year following a series of personal religious experiences.

I'm sure that I do not have an answer to that last question of yours, especially in light of the book's ambiguous ending. Did Rodrigues stop following the teachings of Christ after his formal renunciation? Did Ferreira? Could it even be said that the renunciation of these two priests was a Christian act (ie. out of a motivation to spare the lives of innocents, or even to keep the fledgling Christian community alive in secret)...? Nope, I don't have these answers. Interesting to think about, though.

[Florestan]

I apologize if I've caused any offense by suggesting we share certain aspects of perspective. I guess what I meant is that neither of us is Japanese, and we don't live in the time period in which the book is set, nor that in which it was written. Our environs are bound to influence our interpretation of a story. In any case, it appears we do agree on certain aspects of the book and its problems, at least superficially.

Absolutely no need to apologize, it was tongue in cheek from me but I forgot to add an emoticon. Of course we share many aspects.

As for the "Catholic agnostic" bit, my tongue was in my cheek as I wrote that, as I'm sure was Greene's when he said that. Until recently, I would have identified as an atheist if prompted, but to be more truthful, religion was just not something that factored into my life; I was never part of a religious family outside of a devoutly Catholic grandmother who died when I was young. I have been trying to follow the teachings of Christ for roughly one year following a series of personal religious experiences.

Interesting story, thanks for sharing.

I'm sure that I do not have an answer to that last question of yours, especially in light of the book's ambiguous ending. Did Rodrigues stop following the teachings of Christ after his formal renunciation? Did Ferreira? Could it even be said that the renunciation of these two priests was a Christian act (ie. out of a motivation to spare the lives of innocents, or even to keep the fledgling Christian community alive in secret)...? Nope, I don't have these answers. Interesting to think about, though.

I don't have the answers, either but as you say, food for thought aplenty.

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Mishima OST, Philip Glass. Cross post from the Film Music thread.

https://youtu.be/txoqe611j-o?list=OLAK5uy_nVsXCA2i0ehA2apAx7f0UOUa-crQ7SzGs

[Dry Brett Kavanaugh]

Sometimes I wonder if there should be a thread entitled:  What Should We Be Reading?

I'd nominate this.  I'm nearing the conclusion of Céline's Journey to the End of the Night (English language edition, the French has too much slang I wasn't familiar with).  Not for the faint of heart.  So many quotable passages, so many insights political, social, psychological.  Even biological.  Eg :  "This body of ours, this disguise put on by common jumping molecules, is in constant revolt against the abominable farce of having to endure.  Our molecules, the dears, want to get lost in the universe as fast as they can!  It makes them miserable to be nothing but 'us', the jerks of infinity.  We'd burst if we had the courage, day after day we come very close to it. The atomic torture we love is so locked up inside us with our pride."  Interesting to me that more than one reviewer of the orig. in '32 recognized the author as fascist.

Was planning to purchase his books including this one.

[Artem]

Some books that I've finished since my last report here. I've been reading mostly short books recently.


Love Shoenberg, but Phaidon biographies aren't all that great.


A brief personal account of the beginning of WWI that was published by the author's grandson only recently. Interesting read.


A fictionalised day in the life of Claude Monet. Beautiful prose and an enjoyable read overall.


Maybe the best book of the bunch that I've read. 4 out of 5 stars. Found it from Patti Smith account on Instagram.


Rather sad little book about the position of immigrants in Londons during the 1950s.

[SimonNZ]

I hadn't heard of The Lonely Londoners before. Sounds interesting.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lonely_Londoners

[ritter]

Read on the train back from Barcelona to Madrid, this loving tribute to Giuseppe Sinopoli and his work at the helm of the Staatskapelle Dresden. It includes recollections by people that collaborated with the conductor, interviews with him from different years, and a list of all his performances and of the recordings  he made while in the Saxon capital. What an interesting figure Sinopoli was!

[steve ridgway]

Getting near the end of Jacques Vest - Vox Machinae: Phonographs and the Birth of Sonic Modernity, 1877-1930 that Tony found online - https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/146079/jacquesb_1.pdf?sequence=1

[vers la flamme]

Just started Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian, or The Evening Redness in the West.



This book is insane. To start with, it's riddled with so many vivid descriptions of extreme violence that if I didn't know better, I'd have expected McCarthy to be an avid death metal listener. Then there is the prose. Everyone who's read two pages of McCarthy knows that he writes in a highly individual, mannered style, but here, it's taken to an almost parodistic extreme. The book is set roughly 170 years ago, in the aftermath of the Mexican-American war, and it could be said that McCarthy's use of archaic language is an attempt to evoke the language of the time, but more truthfully, this reads like something biblical: like the events of this book could have taken place immediately before the great flood. In any case, the writing, though occasionally frustrating, is as ornate and detailed as a Gothic cathedral. I'm only about a quarter of the way into the book and looking forward to reading on. These two polarizing factors aside, it's a classic, epic adventure story after the example of Moby Dick or The Odyssey.