Mahler Mania, Rebooted

Started by Greta, May 01, 2007, 08:06:38 PM

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staxomega

#4860
On the topic of Karajan and Mahler I find his live recording of Symphony 4 with Edith Mathis even better than the one he made for DG, this was recorded shortly after the DG. The DG studio recording was first released as a Galleria CD, these are usually very cheap online.

Mirror Image

Quote from: hvbias on December 13, 2021, 06:46:43 AM
On the topic of Karajan and Mahler I find his live recording of Symphony 4 with Edith Mathis even better than the one he made for DG, this was recorded shortly after the DG. The DG studio recording was first released as a Galleria CD, these are usually very cheap online.

Is this live recording you're talking about a commercial release? Link? Thanks.

staxomega

Quote from: Mirror Image on December 13, 2021, 06:54:05 AM
Is this live recording you're talking about a commercial release? Link? Thanks.

http://78experience.com/welcome.php?mod=disque&disque_id=1614

I have it on a Japanese bootleg label. I haven't heard the above transfer, everything I've heard from St. Laurent is exceptional; all of these roughly prewar era or before. He goes for the purist approach and doesn't use any processing like noise reduction.

Mirror Image

Quote from: hvbias on December 13, 2021, 07:22:06 AM
http://78experience.com/welcome.php?mod=disque&disque_id=1614

I have it on a Japanese bootleg label. I haven't heard the above transfer, everything I've heard from St. Laurent is exceptional; all of these roughly prewar era or before. He goes for the purist approach and doesn't use any processing like noise reduction.

Ah okay. So it's not a commercial release. Thanks anyway.

Oh and I still love Karajan's studio 4th. ;)

aukhawk

But why judge recordings of the 4th on the merits of the soprano, as though she's the main event?  She's a 9-minute contribution at the end of a 55-minute symphony, and the success of the recording is surely decided long before you get to that point.  Granted, it's possible to have a really awful sung contribution that spoils an otherwise fine performance, but in that (hopefully rare) case we can always push the stop button.

André

You have a point there, but others may feel that the soprano movement is a make or break element (I do). The sung finale does not take anything off the first three movements, but it is crucial in making the symphony work as a whole.

Jo498

I agree. The soprano can, if not ruin, seriously mar a performance. I am not so much into the 3rd but I suspect that it's similar with the alto solo and while I do not recall spontaneously a horrible "Urlicht" this would also totally spoil Mahler's second for me. (FWIW I also think that many recordings of Beethoven's 9th are marred by singers not up to the very demanding solos).
To put it bluntly, these 8-9 min cannot *make* a Mahler 4th but can get close to *breaking* it. The boy in Bernstein's DG is such a liability (but maybe interesting in other way), I am not sure, if I remember correctly, but I think Walter's CBS recording is spoiled for me by the soprano and there are probably more, if I re-listened to the recordings I have.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

MusicTurner

Agree, and I find myself increasingly idiosyncratic as regards singers, finding that there are so many potential faulty aspects, so it's an essential part.

staxomega

#4868
Quote from: LKB on December 12, 2021, 09:33:09 PM
Karajan's Mahler was a work in progress. If memory serves, he referred during an interview to plans for eventually recording both the Third and the Eighth with the BPO. How unfortunate it is that the infamous personnel drama around Sabine Meyer should poison his relationship with the orchestra, and nullify those plans.

Karajan and the 8th could have been very interesting, I think he would have had the sensitivity for it, but I could see the sonics being dreadful. This came up as the most mentioned least favorite Mahler symphony on a TalkClassical thread several weeks ago by a pretty wide margin, my guess was because people only heard the rather poor famous performance from Solti. If I could see any symphony live more often than any other 8th would be my choice.


Quote from: Mirror Image on December 13, 2021, 07:36:36 AM
Ah okay. So it's not a commercial release. Thanks anyway.

Oh and I still love Karajan's studio 4th. ;)

If this is for sound quality reasons it sounds like it could have been a commercial album. There is certainly nothing wrong with the DG studio, the relative interpretive differences between the two isn't that great, the live one just has that bit "extra" that great live performances sometimes do and I love the way Karajan shapes the adagio in it.

Going to listen to Ivan Fischer that you mentioned on the previous page which I haven't heard in a really long time and enjoy quite a bit, followed by Barbirolli's BBC.

JBS

#4869
Quote from: Jo498 on December 14, 2021, 11:08:07 AM
I agree. The soprano can, if not ruin, seriously mar a performance. I am not so much into the 3rd but I suspect that it's similar with the alto solo and while I do not recall spontaneously a horrible "Urlicht" this would also totally spoil Mahler's second for me. (FWIW I also think that many recordings of Beethoven's 9th are marred by singers not up to the very demanding solos).
To put it bluntly, these 8-9 min cannot *make* a Mahler 4th but can get close to *breaking* it. The boy in Bernstein's DG is such a liability (but maybe interesting in other way), I am not sure, if I remember correctly, but I think Walter's CBS recording is spoiled for me by the soprano and there are probably more, if I re-listened to the recordings I have.

Renee Fleming on Abbado's Berlin recording seems to a disfavorite with many.

In reference to Beethoven, Bruggen's second cycle is almost perfect but has two  male soloists in the 9th who are bad enough to make the rest of the set seem not worth listening to.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

relm1

Quote from: hvbias on December 14, 2021, 04:35:44 PM
Karajan and the 8th could have been very interesting, I think he would have had the sensitivity for it, but I could see the sonics being dreadful. This came up as the most mentioned least favorite Mahler symphony on a TalkClassical thread several weeks ago by a pretty wide margin, my guess was because people only heard the rather poor famous performance from Solti. If I could see any symphony live more often than any other 8th would be my choice.


If this is for sound quality reasons it sounds like it could have been a commercial album. There is certainly nothing wrong with the DG studio, the relative interpretive differences between the two isn't that great, the live one just has that bit "extra" that great live performances sometimes do and I love the way Karajan shapes the adagio in it.

Going to listen to Ivan Fischer that you mentioned on the previous page which I haven't heard in a really long time and enjoy quite a bit, followed by Barbirolli's BBC.

Is there a performance of Karajan doing Mahler 2?  That would be interesting to hear.

Jo498

To my knowledge, there is no Mahler with Karajan beyond what he recorded in the studio, i.e. eventually surfacing live recordings would not have different repertoire: Das Lied v. d. Erde, Rücker + Kindertoten-Lieder, symphonies 4,5,6,9.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

relm1

Quote from: Jo498 on December 15, 2021, 07:45:34 AM
To my knowledge, there is no Mahler with Karajan beyond what he recorded in the studio, i.e. eventually surfacing live recordings would not have different repertoire: Das Lied v. d. Erde, Rücker + Kindertoten-Lieder, symphonies 4,5,6,9.

Wow, really?  Even not in concert?  That's a bit odd.

Biffo

Quote from: hvbias on December 14, 2021, 04:35:44 PM
Karajan and the 8th could have been very interesting, I think he would have had the sensitivity for it, but I could see the sonics being dreadful. This came up as the most mentioned least favorite Mahler symphony on a TalkClassical thread several weeks ago by a pretty wide margin, my guess was because people only heard the rather poor famous performance from Solti. If I could see any symphony live more often than any other 8th would be my choice.


If this is for sound quality reasons it sounds like it could have been a commercial album. There is certainly nothing wrong with the DG studio, the relative interpretive differences between the two isn't that great, the live one just has that bit "extra" that great live performances sometimes do and I love the way Karajan shapes the adagio in it.

Going to listen to Ivan Fischer that you mentioned on the previous page which I haven't heard in a really long time and enjoy quite a bit, followed by Barbirolli's BBC.

The 8th was problematic for me from the very first hearing - Bernstein/LSO on LP (CBS). Several years later I bought a recording by Wyn Morris at one of his concerts (Mahler 5) and it did nothing to endear me to the work, I am not sure I ever listened to it all the way through.

In the CD era I have acquired numerous recordings, mainly as part of complete cycles. None of them have really grabbed me with Chailly/Concertgebouw being the best of the bunch.

I recall the Solti being very favourably reviewed but I don't like it. I find Part I frenzied and noisy and Part II just goes on too long but I find that with just about everybody.

Jo498

Quote from: relm1 on December 15, 2021, 05:20:47 PM
Wow, really?  Even not in concert?  That's a bit odd.
I have not read a biography about HvK, so other might correct me.
But it seems that he came very late to Mahler overall, didn't conduct any Mahler before 1970 (except maybe Lieder?) and with the preparation needed for this perfectionist he didn't get beyond the ones he actually recorded. In the early 1980s he was also apparently so bewitched by digital technology that he could be easily persuaded to (re-)record Beethoven, Brahms, some Bruckner, Strauss etc. and a few years later his health declined rather rapidly. And when he did the Mahler in the mid-1970s he of course also re-recorded lots of standard stuff, apparently this was more important to him. Or he didn't like the other Mahler pieces so much.
I am a bit too young to remember well but looking at videos the decline is pretty startling (both general frailty and I think back problems), look at the NYD Vienna 1987 vs. the late 1988 concerto with Kissin.

In general, Mahler was far more niche before the 1980s. I remember that Mahler was considered an acquired taste or for more advanced listeners when I got into classical music in the mid-late 1980s. Lots of conductors of Karajan's age conducted little or no Mahler. Some (Celibidache, Wand) are even on record with rather negative (or at least distancing) comments about the composer. Others, like Giulini, conducted some Mahler, but were apparently even more picky than Karajan.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

Biffo

Quote from: Jo498 on December 16, 2021, 03:17:58 AM
I have not read a biography about HvK, so other might correct me.
But it seems that he came very late to Mahler overall, didn't conduct any Mahler before 1970 (except maybe Lieder?) and with the preparation needed for this perfectionist he didn't get beyond the ones he actually recorded. In the early 1980s he was also apparently so bewitched by digital technology that he could be easily persuaded to (re-)record Beethoven, Brahms, some Bruckner, Strauss etc. and a few years later his health declined rather rapidly. And when he did the Mahler in the mid-1970s he of course also re-recorded lots of standard stuff, apparently this was more important to him. Or he didn't like the other Mahler pieces so much.
I am a bit too young to remember well but looking at videos the decline is pretty startling (both general frailty and I think back problems), look at the NYD Vienna 1987 vs. the late 1988 concerto with Kissin.

In general, Mahler was far more niche before the 1980s. I remember that Mahler was considered an acquired taste or for more advanced listeners when I got into classical music in the mid-late 1980s. Lots of conductors of Karajan's age conducted little or no Mahler. Some (Celibidache, Wand) are even on record with rather negative (or at least distancing) comments about the composer. Others, like Giulini, conducted some Mahler, but were apparently even more picky than Karajan.

For the early part of Karajan's career he was primarily an operatic conductor and in any cas e Mahler's music was banned up to 1945. Post-war he was still largely operatic though he started to expand his orchestral repertoire. When he started to conduct the Philharmonia Orchestra in the 1950s he was restricted to some extent by the HMV/EMI Repertore Committee - for example, he wanted to record Shostakovich 8 it was rejected as 'too esoteric'.

In 1960, the Mahler Centenary year he conducted three performances of Das Lied von der Erde with the Vienna Philharmonic. I have no ideea how the performances went but when he conducted the same work with the Berlin Philharmonic in the same yearit was, apparently, a disaster and this may have put him off Mahelr for the time being.

During the 1970s the Berlin Philharmonic performed quite a bit of Mahler, mainly with Barbirolli, so Karajan didn't need to. It was only after Barbirolli's death in 1970 that he began to show an interest.

Madiel

Quote from: hvbias on December 14, 2021, 04:35:44 PM
This came up as the most mentioned least favorite Mahler symphony on a TalkClassical thread several weeks ago by a pretty wide margin, my guess was because people only heard the rather poor famous performance from Solti.

That's a lousy guess.

QuoteIf I could see any symphony live more often than any other 8th would be my choice.

The fact that it would be your choice doesn't mean it has to be anybody else's.
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vers la flamme

Mahler's 8th is pretty high on the list for me of symphonies I want to see live.

staxomega

#4878
Quote from: Madiel on December 18, 2021, 02:21:38 PM
That's a lousy guess.

An educated guess based off discussions of Mahler's 8 there.

Quote
The fact that it would be your choice doesn't mean it has to be anybody else's.

What an obviously blatant observation, where did I say it would be anyone else's choice?

It's a majorly problematic symphony to record for conventional playback (stereo).

Quote from: vers la flamme on December 19, 2021, 04:45:11 AM
Mahler's 8th is pretty high on the list for me of symphonies I want to see live.

It's quite stunning when performed well. I would love to see either Ivan Fischer or Honeck do it at some point if they ever chose to.

Mirror Image

Quote from: vers la flamme on December 19, 2021, 04:45:11 AM
Mahler's 8th is pretty high on the list for me of symphonies I want to see live.

I wouldn't mind seeing it for sure. Schoenberg's Gurre-Lieder, too.