Topic: Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[krummholz]

Without wading through 263 pages of the score, I wouldn't assume this is an argument based on things Mahler explicitly wanted as opposed to an argument about performance practice. You yourself described it as "HIP style".

Agree. It has been many years since I looked at the score of the 6th, but I don't recall seeing explicit tempo fluctuations in this part (Fischer is referring to the Scherzo, and because he mentions the "altvaterisch" designation, I assume it's the twice-occurring Trio section that he means). That's not to say they're not written in there, just that I don't recall seeing them. Also, I know that some conductors (e.g. Bernstein) make heavy use of little hesitations and speedings-up in this trio, but others do not, and there are definite differences in tempo for the transition back to and return of the Scherzo proper between e.g. Bernstein and e.g. Barbirolli. My feeling is these are just differences in performance practice in the absence of explicit instructions from the composer... but then again, I could be wrong.

[André]

Agree. It has been many years since I looked at the score of the 6th, but I don't recall seeing explicit tempo fluctuations in this part (Fischer is referring to the Scherzo, and because he mentions the "altvaterisch" designation, I assume it's the twice-occurring Trio section that he means). That's not to say they're not written in there, just that I don't recall seeing them. Also, I know that some conductors (e.g. Bernstein) make heavy use of little hesitations and speedings-up in this trio, but others do not, and there are definite differences in tempo for the transition back to and return of the Scherzo proper between e.g. Bernstein and e.g. Barbirolli. My feeling is these are just differences in performance practice in the absence of explicit instructions from the composer... but then again, I could be wrong.

My feeling, too. If it was in the score it would be common knowledge among conductors/players. I think Fischer feels these tiny adjustments help the results. What Fischer does for example is hold a note and slightly fine down the vibrato so that at the end it is played senza vibrato. That’s what my ears detected and what I referred to when I mentioned it’s a bit HIP-like.

[Brewski]

Last night on The Late Show with Stephen Colbert, actor Bradley Cooper revealed he loves Mahler's 2nd ("Resurrection") Symphony. Colbert turned to bandleader Jon Batiste:
 
"Got any Mahler's Resurrection?"

JB: "We don't have enough instruments for that."

 

--Bruce

[Jo498]

They could have done a chamberish version of Urlicht, or even better the St. Antony fish sermon scherzo!

[Brewski]

They could have done a chamberish version of Urlicht, or even better the St. Antony fish sermon scherzo!

I would have loved to see them pull one of those out of the hat! (Batiste has the knowledge and the chops, too.)

--Bruce

[LKB]

If that had occurred, I'd probably consider that program mandatory for life.

And now l suppose l should discover who this Bradley Cooper is...

[Jo498]

The name sounded vaguely familiar but I didn't know who he was either but now I looked it up and remember him from "Alias" in the early 2000s. That's the only production with him I have seen, quite a long time ago.

[LKB]

I've wiki'd him, but the only work l recognized was his voicing of Rocket Raccoon.

Still, he plugged M2 and that gets him points in my book. 

[Madiel]

*idly watches a bit of popular culture fly way overhead in the distance*

[Brewski]

Apparently Cooper is working on a new movie about Leonard Bernstein, called Maestro, set to be released later this year.

https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/periods-genres/film-tv/bradley-cooper-classical-conducting-maestro/

--Bruce

[Iota]

If that had occurred, I'd probably consider that program mandatory for life.

And now l suppose l should discover who this Bradley Cooper is...

He's very good indeed in A Star is Born, which he also directed and co-wrote.

Apparently Cooper is working on a new movie about Leonard Bernstein, called Maestro, set to be released later this year.

https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/periods-genres/film-tv/bradley-cooper-classical-conducting-maestro/

--Bruce

Interesting.

[relm1]

I'm a fan of Symphony No. 10 and believe it should be in canon.  The most popular performance edition is Cooke and he was assisted by David and Colin Matthews.  But one thing I'm surprised to realize is how extremely young the Matthew brothers were.  According to their own biographies, they were 19 and 16 years old when they assisted Cooke but claim their formal training came in the decade later.  So, its a bit confusing how or why Cooke would enlist such young students in constructing a completed version of such a monumental composer's final work.  How did this happen?  Isn't that like asking a student to help decipher the Rosetta Stone?  It just doesn't make sense regardless of how talented they are as composers in their maturity. 

[calyptorhynchus]

I'm a fan of Symphony No. 10 and believe it should be in canon.  The most popular performance edition is Cooke and he was assisted by David and Colin Matthews.  But one thing I'm surprised to realize is how extremely young the Matthew brothers were.  According to their own biographies, they were 19 and 16 years old when they assisted Cooke but claim their formal training came in the decade later.  So, its a bit confusing how or why Cooke would enlist such young students in constructing a completed version of such a monumental composer's final work.  How did this happen?  Isn't that like asking a student to help decipher the Rosetta Stone?  It just doesn't make sense regardless of how talented they are as composers in their maturity.

They probably worked as interns (ie unpaid).

[Jo498]

They probably worked as interns (ie unpaid).

Maybe. Or they were the ones most interested in that kind of work. Guy Gavriel Kay worked with Chr. Tolkien to edit what became the Silmarilion as a 20 yo student. Sometimes projects that eventually become quite famous started very modest and especially with modest financial means, basically depending on volunteers (or quasi-volunteers like (not even graduate) students).

[Mirror Image]

I can't claim to be a big fan of the 10th myself. Mahler is in my "Top 5" of favorite composers, but for the life of me, I struggle to appreciate what Cooke has done with it and cannot help thinking that Mahler would've gone in a completely different direction. I do like the Adagio, but this is only because its' been completed by the composer himself. With completions, whatever the intentions may be, I have never come away fully satisfied by any of them. FWIW, Mahler's 9th (a symphony not heard in his lifetime), remains, for this listener, his last will and testament.

[LKB]

I can't claim to be a big fan of the 10th myself. Mahler is in my "Top 5" of favorite composers, but for the life of me, I struggle to appreciate what Cooke has done with it and cannot help thinking that Mahler would've gone in a completely different direction. I do like the Adagio, but this is only because its' been completed by the composer himself. With completions, whatever the intentions may be, I have never come away fully satisfied by any of them. FWIW, Mahler's 9th (a symphony not heard in his lifetime), remains, for this listener, his last will and testament.

I'd say this sums up my views as well. Thanks, MI, for saving me the trouble. 

[Crudblud]

Barshai comes the closest to what I would think of as a "Mahlerian" sounding Tenth, but it will always remain an unfinished work as far as I'm concerned, and I don't view the symphony as a whole as authentic Mahler in any version.

[Madiel]

I’ve yet to finish my Gielen box. It includes both an Adagio and a completed 10, as Gielen changed his own feeling towards the completion.

[relm1]

I can't claim to be a big fan of the 10th myself. Mahler is in my "Top 5" of favorite composers, but for the life of me, I struggle to appreciate what Cooke has done with it and cannot help thinking that Mahler would've gone in a completely different direction. I do like the Adagio, but this is only because its' been completed by the composer himself. With completions, whatever the intentions may be, I have never come away fully satisfied by any of them. FWIW, Mahler's 9th (a symphony not heard in his lifetime), remains, for this listener, his last will and testament.

He DID complete the 10th symphony.  Only the first two movements were completed in full score but the symphony in its entirety was written in sketch first.  Then he made another pass of the full work flushing it out (the draft score).  He died while orchestrating it.  The complexity of the 10th is that in some cases, the sketch is more flushed out than the draft and vice versa and that's where interpretation comes in...which version is the "truer" one.  None of those versions are all that different showing just how finished the work was.  Mahler is also a composer who never stopped finicking with any of his works.  There was just a new "critical" version of his Symphony No. 4 as scholars further discovered comments he wrote through various performances of it.   

[relm1]

Barshai comes the closest to what I would think of as a "Mahlerian" sounding Tenth, but it will always remain an unfinished work as far as I'm concerned, and I don't view the symphony as a whole as authentic Mahler in any version.

My favorites are Barshai and Remo Mazzetti Jr. (1997 version).  I think Barshai is best at approximating late Mahler and Mazzetti 3 at where he might have gone.  Since Mahler constantly revised his music, he never heard 10 so this is only his first ideas of the completed work that we have.  But I would advocate that we lose out by not hearing the full work even though we'll never know exactly what he would have done because everything we hear from the completed versions is pure Mahler - just maybe not where he would have landed after multiple rehearsals and subsequent revisions.  Sort of like how there is something wonderful to be gained from hearing his very early Das Klagende Lied which he heavily revised and abandoned the massive last movement.  We can gain some insight in what he struggled with and what he would have been fine with too.