Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[krummholz]

Yes, the 10th was very much complete at least in sketch as Mahler left it, but we do not know exactly how he would have orchestrated it, except for the first movement and the first half (I think) of the third movement (Purgatorio). I think a stronger case can be made for considering the completed Mahler 10th canon than in the case of Bruckner's 9th, where despite the extensive sketches for the finale, anyone desiring to prepare a performing version of those sketches has to fill in conjectural material in places where Bruckner's sketches were either lost or never written, and we do not know exactly how Bruckner would have ended it.

I have only heard Cooke's first version (Ormandy) and his last (Levine, Rattle) and have no idea how the other performing versions compare. Of those two I prefer Cooke's last, and I prefer Rattle's reading to Levine's (by far). I must give a listen to some other "completions" at some point (the scare quotes are because Cooke never called his versions that, and was careful to say that he had only made a "performing version of the sketch").

So much music to hear, so little time!

[Mirror Image]

I'd say this sums up my views as well. Thanks, MI, for saving me the trouble. 

Great minds think alike.

[Mirror Image]

He DID complete the 10th symphony.  Only the first two movements were completed in full score but the symphony in its entirety was written in sketch first.  Then he made another pass of the full work flushing it out (the draft score).  He died while orchestrating it.  The complexity of the 10th is that in some cases, the sketch is more flushed out than the draft and vice versa and that's where interpretation comes in...which version is the "truer" one.  None of those versions are all that different showing just how finished the work was.  Mahler is also a composer who never stopped finicking with any of his works.  There was just a new "critical" version of his Symphony No. 4 as scholars further discovered comments he wrote through various performances of it.   

Despite what information has been gathered about the 10th, my position about it has remained unchanged and I doubt I'd ever have any kind of serious change of heart about it. I've had some other Mahlerians go as far to tell me that I'm not a Mahler fan for upholding this view, but my doubts are not without foundation and I have heard the 10th numerous times, but I'm just left with more questions than anything that was musically satisfying.

[Spotted Horses]

I can't claim to be a big fan of the 10th myself. Mahler is in my "Top 5" of favorite composers, but for the life of me, I struggle to appreciate what Cooke has done with it and cannot help thinking that Mahler would've gone in a completely different direction. ...

Someone should be keeping track, because it seems to me you have mentioned at least a hundred "Top 5" composers.

[LKB]

Great minds think alike.

And so, it seems, do ours. 

[Brahmsian]

Someone should be keeping track, because it seems to me you have mentioned at least a hundred "Top 5" composers.

[Mirror Image]

Someone should be keeping track, because it seems to me you have mentioned at least a hundred "Top 5" composers.

I can't hide the fact that they used to change like the wind, but these days I'm much stable with my "Top 5", which is Debussy, Mahler, Strauss, Sibelius and Bartók.

[Mirror Image]

And so, it seems, do ours. 

[bhodges]

This past weekend, for his final concerts as Houston Symphony Music Director, Andrés Orozco-Estrada led the ensemble in Mahler 2, and the broadcast is available on YouTube. Haven't watched yet, but certainly will soon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi0Bed3fMRc

--Bruce

[Mirror Image]

This past weekend, for his final concerts as Houston Symphony Music Director, Andrés Orozco-Estrada led the ensemble in Mahler 2, and the broadcast is available on YouTube. Haven't watched yet, but certainly will soon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi0Bed3fMRc

--Bruce

Hey Bruce, I like your Schnittke quote! Now that is a memorable quote.

[bhodges]

Hey Bruce, I like your Schnittke quote! Now that is a memorable quote.

Thank you, John. Memorable on its own, and describes a lot of his music very well. 

--Bruce

[Mirror Image]

Thank you, John. Memorable on its own, and describes a lot of his music very well. 

--Bruce

Yes, indeed.

[calyptorhynchus]

I've had some other Mahlerians go as far to tell me that I'm not a Mahler fan for upholding this view...

My experience is that the more Mahlerian the fan the less likely they are to countenance the performing versions of the 10th. As for me I'm a picky Maherlian, I can do entirely without symphonies 1-3 (and the finale of 4!), and his great symphonies in my view are 5, 6, 9 (+Das Lied) ... and 10.

10 seems to me the beginning of a whole new cycle of symphonies that alas he didn't live to write. My favourite version is Barshai's, but the main problem with the performing versions is that neither Barshai, Cooke nor Wheeler are as great an orchestrator as Mahler was. In particular I think that late Mahler orchestration is both very massive and very delicate and none of the orchestrators get this quite right in their versions.

[Mirror Image]

My experience is that the more Mahlerian the fan the less likely they are to countenance the performing versions of the 10th. As for me I'm a picky Maherlian, I can do entirely without symphonies 1-3 (and the finale of 4!), and his great symphonies in my view are 5, 6, 9 (+Das Lied) ... and 10.

10 seems to me the beginning of a whole new cycle of symphonies that alas he didn't live to write. My favourite version is Barshai's, but the main problem with the performing versions is that neither Barshai, Cooke nor Wheeler are as great an orchestrator as Mahler was. In particular I think that late Mahler orchestration is both very massive and very delicate and none of the orchestrators get this quite right in their versions.

My least favorite Mahler symphonies are the 1st and 8th. The rest are absolutely brilliant and contain some desert island music for me. The 10th is where I get of the Mahlerian ship as it's not Mahler any longer, but someone else's music.

[LKB]

Just raising a glass to GM. He died on May 18th, 1911. 

[vers la flamme]

If you're listening to Mahler these days, what Mahler are you listening to?

For me, lots of these recordings:

[Biffo]

If you're listening to Mahler these days, what Mahler are you listening to?

For me, lots of these recordings:

Not sure why but having a bit of a fallow period of listening to Mahler, despite having all the discs you have shown (and numerous others).

[Mirror Image]

If you're listening to Mahler these days, what Mahler are you listening to?

For me, lots of these recordings:

All great discs, too, vers la flamme. I haven't listen to a lot of Mahler lately --- I think the last recordings I listened to were these two with Klemperer:



Both were outstanding in every way!

[LKB]

I'm watching:

https://youtu.be/oUBx_Q-xw2M

Mahler Symphony no. 2 from the 1984 Christmas Matinee with the RCO, soloists and Haitink.

Anyone here who may think that Haitink was dour, boring, plodding etc. should go to the last few minutes of the work. By the very end, Haitink is on afterburner, he " out- Bernstein's " Bernstein. It's really quite something to see.

[Mirror Image]

I'm watching:

https://youtu.be/oUBx_Q-xw2M

Mahler Symphony no. 2 from the 1984 Christmas Matinee with the RCO, soloists and Haitink.

Anyone here who may think that Haitink was dour, boring, plodding etc. should go to the last few minutes of the work. By the very end, Haitink is on afterburner, he " out- Bernstein's " Bernstein. It's really quite something to see.

Those Matinee concerts are FANTASTIC! I own the CD box set, which I bought as a Japanese import, but its worth its weight in gold: