Mahler Mania, Rebooted

Started by Greta, May 01, 2007, 08:06:38 PM

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JBS

Quote from: vers la flamme on August 04, 2022, 06:50:18 PM
The reason I've held off so far is because I realized that I already have most of the recordings with the exception of 5 and 6. But, if you or anyone else can convince me that the Warner set has a new remaster that's worth hearing...  ;D

The new remastering is first class.
I also just got some Barbirolli Society CDs of two symphonies he didn't record for HMV/EMI--the Second and the Seventh, and the First with the Czech Philharmonic. They're all live performances. I have yet to listen to any, so I can't tell you how good they are.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

vers la flamme

Quote from: JBS on August 04, 2022, 07:01:33 PM
The new remastering is first class.
I also just got some Barbirolli Society CDs of two symphonies he didn't record for HMV/EMI--the Second and the Seventh, and the First with the Czech Philharmonic. They're all live performances. I have yet to listen to any, so I can't tell you how good they are.

Well damn. Now you're making this hard for me  ;D

not edward

Revisiting Scherchen's Toronto recording of Mahler 7 for the first time in a few years and my memory had underestimated just how good it is.... wild, constantly pushing the music just a little bit beyond the boundaries of what ought to work, but still making sense because of the underlying vision behind. I don't think I know a recording that so clearly points up the ambiguity at the heart of the work... bombastic/meditative; optimistic/pessimistic; 19th/20th century? And the finale really borders on "there's light at the end of the tunnel... but is it the sun or is it a train?"
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
-- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

Roasted Swan

Quote from: not edward on August 06, 2022, 08:04:26 AM
Revisiting Scherchen's Toronto recording of Mahler 7 for the first time in a few years and my memory had underestimated just how good it is.... wild, constantly pushing the music just a little bit beyond the boundaries of what ought to work, but still making sense because of the underlying vision behind. I don't think I know a recording that so clearly points up the ambiguity at the heart of the work... bombastic/meditative; optimistic/pessimistic; 19th/20th century? And the finale really borders on "there's light at the end of the tunnel... but is it the sun or is it a train?"

Don't know the performance but LOVE your description of the work and this version. 

MusicTurner

#5104
Quote from: not edward on August 06, 2022, 08:04:26 AM
Revisiting Scherchen's Toronto recording of Mahler 7 for the first time in a few years and my memory had underestimated just how good it is.... wild, constantly pushing the music just a little bit beyond the boundaries of what ought to work, but still making sense because of the underlying vision behind. I don't think I know a recording that so clearly points up the ambiguity at the heart of the work... bombastic/meditative; optimistic/pessimistic; 19th/20th century? And the finale really borders on "there's light at the end of the tunnel... but is it the sun or is it a train?"

Agree, a quite exceptional release. The Scherchen/Toronto Kunst der Fuge, but much more low-key of course, is also the best of his versions of that work, I think.

calyptorhynchus

Got a question: in Mahler 9 first movement there is a theme that is a series of mocking trills descending, this later reappears in the first and fifth movements of the 10th. My question is what does this theme mean, or what did it mean to Mahler? Sometimes it sounds like his musical description of the gossiping and backbiting of small-minded people, but sometimes when it appears it seems quite lyrical and affectionate. Any theories?
'Many men are melancholy by hearing music, but it is a pleasing melancholy that it causeth.' Robert Burton

relm1

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 10, 2022, 11:18:07 PM
Got a question: in Mahler 9 first movement there is a theme that is a series of mocking trills descending, this later reappears in the first and fifth movements of the 10th. My question is what does this theme mean, or what did it mean to Mahler? Sometimes it sounds like his musical description of the gossiping and backbiting of small-minded people, but sometimes when it appears it seems quite lyrical and affectionate. Any theories?

Would be better if you share a link with a specific time to which you are referring to but my guess is he's attempting to heighten tension of a secondary/contrasting element.  He might start with a primary idea but there is a secondary idea that rears up but isn't dominant the first time it's heard.  Sort of like a character in play where you see an ominous shadow observing the main character, but that ominous shadow doesn't really do anything, you know it will be important later.  Eventually, there is a grand reveal of the darker character with a big climax or something and Mahler will heighten tension around this secondary element with many devices including trills which helps restate the note but also highlight clashing elements.  But if you can provide a link to the exact moment, that would help from guessing what you are referring to in these expansive symphonies.

Cato

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 10, 2022, 11:18:07 PM

Got a question: in Mahler 9 first movement there is a theme that is a series of mocking trills descending, this later reappears in the first and fifth movements of the 10th. My question is what does this theme mean, or what did it mean to Mahler? Sometimes it sounds like his musical description of the gossiping and backbiting of small-minded people, but sometimes when it appears it seems quite lyrical and affectionate. Any theories?



Quote from: relm1 on August 11, 2022, 05:56:52 AM

Would be better if you share a link with a specific time to which you are referring to but my guess is he's attempting to heighten tension of a secondary/contrasting element.  He might start with a primary idea but there is a secondary idea that rears up but isn't dominant the first time it's heard.  Sort of like a character in play where you see an ominous shadow observing the main character, but that ominous shadow doesn't really do anything, you know it will be important later.  Eventually, there is a grand reveal of the darker character with a big climax or something and Mahler will heighten tension around this secondary element with many devices including trills which helps restate the note but also highlight clashing elements. But if you can provide a link to the exact moment, that would help from guessing what you are referring to in these expansive symphonies.


If you are talking about Bars 86 ff., note that the section leads to a climax at Bar 92, and as RELM 1 points out above, the trilling theme or motifs are used to heighten the tension.

If you listen carefully, the trilling section can be heard as an extended variation on the four-note motif used at the beginning in the Timpani and throughout the work in variations: F#-A-B-A.  In fact the horn theme in the opening bars can be understood as an immediate variation of those four quarter notes.

Also listen to the last two bars of the last movement, where the Violas play G-Ab-B-Ab, an echo of those opening notes on the Timpani.

As to what Mahler meant, nobody can know that, unless Mahler explicitly said what it meant.  Your interpretation is up to you!

Like the definition of God from Nicholas of Cusa and the definition of the Universe from Giordano Bruno, the symphony is "like an infinite sphere, whose circumference is nowhere and whose center is everywhere."

i.e. The symphony allows an infinity of interpretations.
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Spotted Horses

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 10, 2022, 11:18:07 PM
Got a question: in Mahler 9 first movement there is a theme that is a series of mocking trills descending, this later reappears in the first and fifth movements of the 10th. My question is what does this theme mean, or what did it mean to Mahler? Sometimes it sounds like his musical description of the gossiping and backbiting of small-minded people, but sometimes when it appears it seems quite lyrical and affectionate. Any theories?

Brings to mind the quote of Vaughan Williams:

QuoteIt never seems to occur to people that a man might just want to write a piece of music.

:)

Maybe Mahler attached some sort of extra-musical significance to every note in his symphonies. If so, I don't want to know about it. I just want to listen to the music.
There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

Cato

Quote from: Spotted Horses on August 11, 2022, 07:58:14 AM

Maybe Mahler attached some sort of extra-musical significance to every note in his symphonies. If so, I don't want to know about it. I just want to listen to the music.




Quote from: Cato on August 11, 2022, 06:45:02 AM

Like the definition of God from Nicholas of Cusa and the definition of the Universe from Giordano Bruno, the symphony is "like an infinite sphere, whose circumference is nowhere and whose center is everywhere."

i.e. The symphony allows an infinity of interpretations.


I should have added: And any correct interpretation is nowhere.   0:)
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

LKB

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 10, 2022, 11:18:07 PM
Got a question: in Mahler 9 first movement there is a theme that is a series of mocking trills descending, this later reappears in the first and fifth movements of the 10th. My question is what does this theme mean, or what did it mean to Mahler? Sometimes it sounds like his musical description of the gossiping and backbiting of small-minded people, but sometimes when it appears it seems quite lyrical and affectionate. Any theories?

You'll find sequential trills in most ( if not all ) of Mahler's orchestral works. Aside from what you've already mentioned, they're certainly present in Symphonies 2, 3, 5, 6, 7 and Das Lied von der Erde.

I wouldn't ascribe any specific intent to their usage. For the most part, a trill is an ornament and Mahler usually uses it as such.
Mit Flügeln, die ich mir errungen...

krummholz

I don't have the score of the 9th, so I'm trying to remember the passage @calyptorhynchus is referring to in the 1st movement: mocking trills descending. I can't quite place it in that movement. But the passage fitting that description in the 1st movement of the 10th sound to me like a direct echo of a similar figure in the 1st and 2nd movements of the 6th, where the effect is indeed savagely mocking - often accompanied by xylophone. In the 10th the figure sounds lyrical and even nostalgic to these ears.

Still trying to recall the passage in the 9th... without success.

relm1

It's also important to keep in mind what might sound "mocking" to us might have sounded yiddish or klezmer to him.  Sounds of his youth in a way.  In Klezmer music, you frequently hear squeaking clarinet trills that are not meant to be subtle but not mocking either.  As I understand it, the attitude is far more nuanced as it can represent music of celebration in times of suffering (like a village wedding celebration while exiled) and Mahler could be using these musical references as he frequently references music, he was exposed to like the drums of No. 10 being the funeral procession of a fireman he heard in his youth.   Similarly, the rute (percussion sticks on bass drum) are Klezmer references that we might miss if only looking at this purely as music.

This excellent documentary worth watching:
https://youtu.be/v5DfYcT5icY?t=1675


Cato

Quote from: krummholz on August 11, 2022, 01:10:20 PM
I don't have the score of the 9th, so I'm trying to remember the passage @calyptorhynchus is referring to in the 1st movement: mocking trills descending. I can't quite place it in that movement. But the passage fitting that description in the 1st movement of the 10th sound to me like a direct echo of a similar figure in the 1st and 2nd movements of the 6th, where the effect is indeed savagely mocking - often accompanied by xylophone. In the 10th the figure sounds lyrical and even nostalgic to these ears.

Still trying to recall the passage in the 9th... without success.


Go to c. 5:45  Bar 86 marked Fliessend and see if that section is what we are discussing!   8)


https://www.youtube.com/v/ah3mcaRpc9Q
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

JBS

Quote from: relm1 on August 11, 2022, 04:32:25 PM
It's also important to keep in mind what might sound "mocking" to us might have sounded yiddish or klezmer to him.  Sounds of his youth in a way.  In Klezmer music, you frequently hear squeaking clarinet trills that are not meant to be subtle but not mocking either.  As I understand it, the attitude is far more nuanced as it can represent music of celebration in times of suffering (like a village wedding celebration while exiled) and Mahler could be using these musical references as he frequently references music, he was exposed to like the drums of No. 10 being the funeral procession of a fireman he heard in his youth.   Similarly, the rute (percussion sticks on bass drum) are Klezmer references that we might miss if only looking at this purely as music.

This excellent documentary worth watching:
https://youtu.be/v5DfYcT5icY?t=1675

Slight correction: the fireman's funeral was something he saw and heard from his apartment while in New York during his tenure as conductor of the Philharmonic.

So a bit of American influence on the 10th.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

calyptorhynchus

Quote from: Cato on August 11, 2022, 05:36:55 PM
Go to c. 5:45  Bar 86 marked Fliessend and see if that section is what we are discussing!   8)


https://www.youtube.com/v/ah3mcaRpc9Q

Seems like I made a big error. The passage I am referring to is in the first (and fifth movement) of the Tenth. I don't have a score of the Tenth, but it's at 8:47 in the first movement in Barshai's recording. Listening to that the other day I was convinced it also occurred in the Ninth, but now I don't think it does (have listened to the first three movements today and couldn't hear it).
'Many men are melancholy by hearing music, but it is a pleasing melancholy that it causeth.' Robert Burton

krummholz

Quote from: Cato on August 11, 2022, 05:36:55 PM
Go to c. 5:45  Bar 86 marked Fliessend and see if that section is what we are discussing!   8)


https://www.youtube.com/v/ah3mcaRpc9Q

"Full screen is unavailable"

And the print is too small for me to read here, though I *think* I have an idea from the page displayed - maybe the rapid figures on (I think) muted strings based on the F#-A-B-F# figure first heard at the opening on the harp? Very unsure if that is what you mean, but those do not strike me as related to the ones in the 10th.

Madiel

Quote from: Spotted Horses on August 11, 2022, 07:58:14 AM
Brings to mind the quote of Vaughan Williams:

At this moment, Vaughan Williams has moved up my listening priority list.
I am now working on a discography of the works of Vagn Holmboe. Please visit and also contribute!

relm1

Quote from: JBS on August 11, 2022, 07:13:32 PM
Slight correction: the fireman's funeral was something he saw and heard from his apartment while in New York during his tenure as conductor of the Philharmonic.

So a bit of American influence on the 10th.

Ahh...was going off memory but thanks for the correction.

relm1

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 11, 2022, 09:47:36 PM
Seems like I made a big error. The passage I am referring to is in the first (and fifth movement) of the Tenth. I don't have a score of the Tenth, but it's at 8:47 in the first movement in Barshai's recording. Listening to that the other day I was convinced it also occurred in the Ninth, but now I don't think it does (have listened to the first three movements today and couldn't hear it).

I think you are referring to these trills here?
https://youtu.be/8qYqW-otXxI?t=536

If this is what you're referring to, not the same as the trills adding tension as a climax loom which is another devise, just not used here.  I frankly don't hear this as having that much extra-musical meaning but still sounds an awful lot like the music he was exposed to in his youth in his family's tavern.  See that documentary I linked to earlier from MTT/SFO where they play side by side the tavern songs of that day and how those tunes worked their way in to funeral marches.  The specific example, from Mahler's 1st symphony, 3rd movement - the funeral march, starts with a funeral march (not dark or angst filled like Chopin but a solemn procession) but in the middle of it, a slow waltz joins in the procession then another one interrupts the first one.  I think if there is any extra-musical inspiration here, it is that joy and sorrow are bedfellows.

On a side note, I've been reading Mahler's Letters to Alma and from this period, I was very surprised how upbeat and positive Mahler was.  From 1910, just months before his death, he wrote this: "I've come through the year with flying colours, and haven't actually spared myself.  Of the three of us [Mahler, Alma, Alma's mother (his mother in law)], I alone have uninterruptedly enjoyed good health."  This surprised me because at this time he had completed the 9th (his darkest work), was rehearsing the 8th (his greatest public success), and was starting on the 10th.  Mahler is an interesting enigma - his music contains so much passion and he seemed to be in good spirits at the time.  His career was on fire, and he seemed very happy and productive.  But above all, he was more in love than ever.  That same period he told her "Don't you know me better?  I've never been more fond of you than I am now - really never!".  He already knew she had cheated on him several times and she was apologizing for it asking if he thought she was a "scamp"?  During this same time was conducting ten opera productions a month and would spend the summer composing his 10th symphony.  Remember, he spent the summers working on his own music because of his conducting work but he would not live to the following summer as he died May 18, 1911, where he would have completed the full score of the 10th symphony.