Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Jo498]

I thought it was noteworthy mainly from the standpoint of hearing the orchestral songs stripped down to string quartet.  But maybe I am alone in being interested in that kind of thing.  I would like to hear more recordings with different singers.

While there is nothing wrong with SQ arrangements, it is hardly a totally new perspective because all these songs so exist in "officially stripped down" (or rather often original) versions for piano and singer. For a bunch there are also chamber arrangements by prominent musicians from the Schoenberg circle.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I'll throw in Ancerl for the 9th and Reiner for the 4th   

I think Reiner is a good challenge for the Szell as "the Classic". (Ancerl, while I think it's one of the GREAT recordings of the 9th, never was a 'classic'; it might, however, be in the running for Top 9th in the "Dark Horse" cycle. :-))

I think we can see generational lines along the Ludwig vs. Haitink question in the 9th, or Reiner vs. Szell in the 4th, or Bernstein vs. Abbado/Chicago in the 7th, or even Ormandy vs. Rattle in the 10th.

One has to balance recency bias (very much relatively speaking) with UR-golden-age imprint.

OK, List as modified:

1.) Kubelik/BRSO/DG [lock]
2.) ___________________ Mehta/WPh/Decca vs. Klemperer/Philharmonia/EMI*
3.) Horenstein/LSO/Kancha-Unicorn Bernstein? Abbado/Lucerne?
4.) Szell/Raskin/Cleveland/Sony [lock]
5.) ___________________Chailly/RCO/Decca or Bernstein/DG or Barbirolli/EMI?
6.) ___________________Barbirolli/EMI or Bernstein/NY?
7.) ___________________Abbado/Chicago/DG or Bernstein/NY?
8.) Solti/CSO/Decca [lock]
DLvdE.) Klemperer/EMI [lock] (or Walter/Ferrier/Patzak/Decca, after all? A MASSIVELY overrated recording, but that's, if anything, suggesting it does belong here. Would free up Klemperer for No.2)
9.) __________________Karajan II/Berlin/DG or Haitink/RCO I or Walter/Columbia
10.) Ormandy/Philadelphia/Sony
[/quote]

No.#	Modern Classic Cycle	UR-Classic Cycle
No.1	Kubelik/BRSO	??-??
No.2	Mehta/WPh	Klemperer?
No.3	Bernstein/NY/DG	Horenstein
No.4	Szell	Reiner
No.5	Chailly	Barbirolli
No.6	Barbirolli	??-??
No.7	Abbado/CSO	Bernstein/NYP
No.8	Solti	Abravanel
DLvdE	Klemperer/Wunderlich/Ludwig	Walter/Patzak/Ferrier
No.9	Haitink/RCO I	Ludwig? Walter*
No.10	Rattle II	Ormandy

Or the modern classic LvdE is actually Bernstein/King/Fischer-Dieskau and the classic is Klemperer?

[North Star]

Or the modern classic LvdE is actually Bernstein/King/Fischer-Dieskau and the classic is Klemperer?

What about Haitink/Baker/King?

[Mirror Image]

What about Haitink/Baker/King?

+1 The best Das Lied I've heard and I own most of them.

[Biffo]

+1 The best Das Lied I've heard and I own most of them.

A fine performance but I still go with Klemperer/Wunderlich/Ludwig.

[North Star]

A fine performance but I still go with Klemperer/Wunderlich/Ludwig.

Perhaps it would be more realistically offered as the classic, instead of the modern classic, at 55 years old. The Baker/King/Haitink is no spring chicken either, of course.

[Biffo]

Perhaps it would be more realistically offered as the classic, instead of the modern classic, at 55 years old. The Baker/King/Haitink is no spring chicken either, of course.

Haitink/Baker/King is 43 years old (rec. 9/75) and I agree with your point. The Haitink No 9 (rec 6/69) is 48 (soon to be 49) years old, the Ludwig recording dates from 1959 only a decade older. This distinction between 'classic' and 'modern classic' is a bit iffy.

[Jo498]

Ceterum censeo that no baritone version of Das Lied can ever become the main recommendation or classic!

@San Antone, here are the Wayfarer songs in chamber versions

[asin]B000084I33[/asin]

There are also choral versions  of some pieces like the adagietto or "Ich bin der Welt abhanden gekommen" (I think by Clytus Gottwald or Eric Ericson, maybe also others) but cannot point to a recording.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Haitink/Baker/King is 43 years old (rec. 9/75) and I agree with your point. The Haitink No 9 (rec 6/69) is 48 (soon to be 49) years old, the Ludwig recording dates from 1959 only a decade older. This distinction between 'classic' and 'modern classic' is a bit iffy.

All of these distinctions are a bit iffy.  But we muddle through.

Amazing, though, if you put it like that: That the Haitink 9th that so many of us consider a stalwart recording is half a century old, already! And yes, Haitink/King/Baker is in what... among the top 4 classic Das Lied recordings. And also still among the best.

[Biffo]

All of these distinctions are a bit iffy.  But we muddle through.

Amazing, though, if you put it like that: That the Haitink 9th that so many of us consider a stalwart recording is half a century old, already! And yes, Haitink/King/Baker is in what... among the top 4 classic Das Lied recordings. And also still among the best.

Yes indeed and I got my arithmetic wrong - should have said '49 soon to be 50'.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Ceterum censeo that no baritone version of Das Lied can ever become the main recommendation or classic!

I, in turn, propose that that's a bunch of malarkey. Why would that be? It's as viable a choice... and certainly King/Dieskau has attained that status. On average, I'd even say that tenor/baritone versions tend to be more successfu. (Dickie/FiDi, ehm... Gerhaher/Vogt...) although then again perhaps not, because some really great ones (King/Baker, Wunderlich/Ludwig, arguably Kment/Baker) are T/A. Inconclusive. But the thing's called "Das Lied von der Erde. Eine Symphonie für eine Tenor- und eine Alt- (oder Bariton-) Stimme und Orchester (nach Hans Bethges "Die chinesische Flöte"). Von Gustav Mahler", so I don't see why a version for tenor and low voice must necessarily have a mezzo/alto fulfill that duty lest it be considered a priori inferior.

[André]

 Not inferior, but different enough for personal preferences to show a marked bias. For my taste, the mezzo/contralto voice has a warmth, sensuality and luminosity that the baritone voice often (not always) lacks. Entirely subjective of course... 0:)

[Jo498]

It's true, the problem is usually the tenor anyway.
But I have heard Fi-Di with Kletzki? and the Rattle and disliked both. As the former is often recommended but does not come close to merely decent alto/tenor versions, so I decided no to waste anymore time with it. If one wants less than 5 recordings of the piece, I would not get a tenor/baritone.

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

I, in turn, propose that that's a bunch of malarkey. Why would that be? It's as viable a choice... and certainly King/Dieskau has attained that status. On average, I'd even say that tenor/baritone versions tend to be more successfu. (Dickie/FiDi, ehm... Gerhaher/Vogt...) although then again perhaps not, because some really great ones (King/Baker, Wunderlich/Ludwig, arguably Kment/Baker) are T/A. Inconclusive. But the thing's called "Das Lied von der Erde. Eine Symphonie für eine Tenor- und eine Alt- (oder Bariton-) Stimme und Orchester (nach Hans Bethges "Die chinesische Flöte"). Von Gustav Mahler", so I don't see why a version for tenor and low voice must necessarily have a mezzo/alto fulfill that duty lest it be considered a priori inferior.

I call bulls*** on your malarkey. Mahler made it an alternative to increase prospects for the work being widely performed. I put it at the same level as the Brahms "(oder Bratsche)" specified in the Brahms Clarinet Sonatas. Yes, it is a good vehicle for a viola soloists, but not the preferred realization of the piece.

Das Lied von der Erde may be a good piece for a bass/baritone to sing, but a bass/baritone is not the best performer for the piece.

[JBS]

I call bulls*** on your malarkey. Mahler made it an alternative to increase prospects for the work being widely performed. I put it at the same level as the Brahms "(oder Bratsche)" specified in the Brahms Clarinet Sonatas. Yes, it is a good vehicle for a viola soloists, but not the preferred realization of the piece.

Das Lied von der Erde may be a good piece for a bass/baritone to sing, but a bass/baritone is not the best performer for the piece.

I call malarkey on that
Of course I am a baritone...

This is probably the best male/male recording.
[asin]B003JC4E4Y[/asin]
Some reservations about the orchestra, but FW was better here than he was with Klemperer, and DFD better than he was with Bernstein.

No one seems to have mentioned the Reiner recording, which I have a fondness for because it was my first acquaintance with DLvdE.

[JBS]

BTW, another recent (2017)entry into the sweepstakes
[asin]B01MY5F6PQ[/asin]

[Ghost of Baron Scarpia]

I call malarkey on that
Of course I am a baritone...

This is probably the best male/male recording.
[asin]B003JC4E4Y[/asin]
Some reservations about the orchestra, but FW was better here than he was with Klemperer, and DFD better than he was with Bernstein.

No one seems to have mentioned the Reiner recording, which I have a fondness for because it was my first acquaintance with DLvdE.

I have always found DFD unpalatable, more or less in anything.

In any case, my interest in this issue is limited, because I always found the best parts of DLVDE are when no one is singing...

I've only listened to three that I remember, Karajan/Berlin, Boulez/WPO, Barenboim/Chicago. I liked Karajan best, Boulez runner up.

[Madiel]

...I've finally realised the Kubelik no.1 you all agree on is not the one I have or was talking about.

The one I have is live and on the Audite label, and more than one source praised it as even better than Kubelik's DG recording. I think our current author was one of those sources...

Honestly, it's tiring enough listening to a Mahler symphony, never mind working out which versions to own.

[ritter]

Well, you can also have DLvdE with neither a contralto nor a baritone  :

[asin]B01MZZXR1G[/asin]

[Jo498]

People are of course free to like the baritone version. For some reason I got the Fi-Di/Dickie instead of the one with King. Probably someone loudly preferred it on the internet... So I might have missed the best version.
Of course I am simply used to the alto version, having listened to it for more than 20 years almost exlusively. But I think there are musical reasons, too, it sounds better with a higher voice (many "altos" who sange it have actually been mezzos), there is more variety in the whole with a male and a female voice.
Except for the first one, the tenor songs are trifles, so for me the core is how does the tenor manage the extremely demanding first song and what do I prefer in "Der Abschied (which is almost half of the piece, after all). That's alto/mezzo for me and "Von der Schönheit" also is far more seductive for this phallo-logokrat with a female voice.

Regardless of clear personal preferences I think it can be defended to have only/mainly alto versions when concerned with "classic" recordings or standard recommendations.
There are so many between "classics" like Klemperer, Ferrier/Walter,  another of Walter's, Haitink, maybe Reiner, maybe a more recent one in good sound and "alternatives like the live Kubelik/Kmentt/Baker, maybe the Kleiber (Kmentt/Wunderlich) or other dark horses that the baritone versions would rank somewhere between Das Klagende Lied and the first symphony with Blumine in my preferences and recommendations.