Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Madiel]

Gradually going through the Gielen set. And while I wouldn't qualify for full-blown obsession, I do generally agree with you and find Mahler an incredibly interesting composer. Who is best dosed on very occasionally.

Point of order, the "young" Jean Sibelius was only 5 years younger than Mahler. They're basically peers, though utterly different from each other.

[vers la flamme]

Gradually going through the Gielen set. And while I wouldn't qualify for full-blown obsession, I do generally agree with you and find Mahler an incredibly interesting composer. Who is best dosed on very occasionally.

Point of order, the "young" Jean Sibelius was only 5 years younger than Mahler. They're basically peers, though utterly different from each other.

That's fair. They do both represent the same turn-of-the-century era, though indeed in completely different ways. A 5-year age gap can be a big difference, but in this case both were at roughly similar stages in their careers.

How do you like the Gielen set? I've heard nothing but great things about the guy, but have heard none of his music. The only Mahler cycle I have is the Bernstein/NYPO/Sony, but I have tons of additional individual recordings of the various symphonies. I think I would benefit from an additional full cycle, I'm thinking Bertini or Kubelik, but I need to pace myself, maybe sometime next year.

[Madiel]

I'm attempting to reply and the site is going haywire. 403 Forbidden error.

Let me try again within this post and some plain text...

So far so good, though I'm the exact opposite: I have fairly few individual releases to compare with, some of which I haven't listened to for years and couldn't really tell you what they're like, and bought Gielen on the basis of reviews.

Some of the individual releases I do know well enough to remember, I haven't yet got to that work in Gielen's set so I'm not much use to you. Thus far I've only listened to the first 3 symphonies, Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen and Des Knaben Wunderhorn.

I definitely got a lot out of the disc which has the Knaben Wunderhorn songs on it, and having Urlicht as the final song was... just magic. That was the transcendent moment thus far.

[vers la flamme]

Awesome. Well, enjoy, my friend. You're in for a treat with the 4th, if you like the Wunderhorn songs. Mahler's 4th is the one that made me re-evaluate his music in the first place, as before that I'd only ever heard the 8th, and I was under the impression that Mahler was all doom & gloom & bombast. When I heard the 4th I realized that the key to Mahler's music was subtlety. It may still be my favorite, though I also love 1, 2, and 5 a great deal. I found 3, 6, 7, and especially 8 to be more challenging. I love all of the Lieder that I've heard. Hearing the Lieder cycles was what convinced me that Mahler was truly an important composer.

I do like what I've heard with Gielen. I think you probably made a good choice with his cycle, though there are too damn many out there for any one to be a definitive choice. Plus, the nature of his music rewards varying interpretations, I think.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I'm attempting to reply and the site is going haywire. 403 Forbidden error.

I'm having the same problems. And the site is sloooooooooooow, for me.

[vers la flamme]

GMG appears to be suffering serious server issues. This has been an intermittent problem ever since I joined up last month. I hope these issues are able to be overcome soon. This is a great site.

I listened to Klemperer's Das Lied von der Erde earlier. It was good, but I think I was not quite in the right mood. Anyway, I kept comparing it against the Haitink/RCO that I know and love. I'm sure I'll return in due time. Now, I really want to get my hands on one of Bruno Walter's DLvdE recordings. Someone should tell me which is the one to get...? Also, are there any fans here of the Reiner/Chicago DLvdE? I haven't heard it but I love his Mahler 4th.

[bhodges]

I'm attempting to reply and the site is going haywire. 403 Forbidden error.

GMG appears to be suffering serious server issues. This has been an intermittent problem ever since I joined up last month. I hope these issues are able to be overcome soon. This is a great site.

Please see the "Bug report" thread in GMG News. Rob is on the case.

(But now, back to Mahler.  )

--Bruce

[JBS]

GMG appears to be suffering serious server issues. This has been an intermittent problem ever since I joined up last month. I hope these issues are able to be overcome soon. This is a great site.

I listened to Klemperer's Das Lied von der Erde earlier. It was good, but I think I was not quite in the right mood. Anyway, I kept comparing it against the Haitink/RCO that I know and love. I'm sure I'll return in due time. Now, I really want to get my hands on one of Bruno Walter's DLvdE recordings. Someone should tell me which is the one to get...? Also, are there any fans here of the Reiner/Chicago DLvdE? I haven't heard it but I love his Mahler 4th.

I posted a comment in the main listening thread in reply to yours there...
But in respect to your post here...
I have Walter's recording with the NYPO [or the Columbia Symphony Orchestra, depending on which re-issue you look at], and it felt rather "meh" to me. Never heard the one with Ferrier and the VPO. Those seem to be the two main options, although there seem to be a couple of in-concert recordings available.

In fact, I have been underwhelmed by all of Walter's Mahler I have heard, except for the famous Vienna Ninth. Perhaps he was better before WWII?

As for Reiner..that recording was my very first Mahler recording, and I still like it very much, even with all the other recordings I have heard since then. Amazon shows an Archipel CD of a Reiner DLvdE in which Ludwig appears, not Forrester.

[vers la flamme]

I posted a comment in the main listening thread in reply to yours there...
But in respect to your post here...
I have Walter's recording with the NYPO [or the Columbia Symphony Orchestra, depending on which re-issue you look at], and it felt rather "meh" to me. Never heard the one with Ferrier and the VPO. Those seem to be the two main options, although there seem to be a couple of in-concert recordings available.

In fact, I have been underwhelmed by all of Walter's Mahler I have heard, except for the famous Vienna Ninth. Perhaps he was better before WWII?

As for Reiner..that recording was my very first Mahler recording, and I still like it very much, even with all the other recordings I have heard since then. Amazon shows an Archipel CD of a Reiner DLvdE in which Ludwig appears, not Forrester.

Reiner's recording of the 4th was the first Mahler I ever listened to and enjoyed. He was a hell of a conductor, even if Mahler was not exactly his specialty.

Bruno Walter's Mahler 1st (Columbia SO, late 1950s-early 1960s, not sure specifics) is so good! I just got it yesterday, but I was really impressed. The finale finally made sense, and the 3rd movement was about as well done as I've ever heard it. As for his DLvdE, I think the Ferrier/VPO is the one I'm leaning toward, but I need to sample both. I think it's necessary to have one of his recordings considering he premièred the work. We don't always have the luxury of getting to hear recordings (especially in near-modern sound) from conductors who première such great works.

Thanks for the responses. I always appreciate having people to talk Mahler with, as my girlfriend can't stand Mahler and I don't have a lot of other friends into classical music, period. 

[stingo]

I am pleased (and feel very privileged) to say I've heard Mahler's symphonies live in concert. Most have been with the Philadelphia Orchestra, but the standout was a truly marvelous performance of the 9th with the Utah Symphony Orchestra. I believe it was Keith Lockhart's final outing with the ensemble that led to wondrous, luminous performance that lasted well after the last note was played.

[André]

A great experience indeed, Stingo !

[vers la flamme]

Does anyone have a favorite singer of Mahler's Lieder? There are a few I really like: Christa Ludwig, whose Kindertotenlieder and Rückert-Lieder with Karajan/BPO is just phenomenal, and then Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau, who recorded a great Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen with Kubelik and the Bavarian RSO. Hermann Prey's Wayfarer songs with Haitink and the RCO is also very good. Honorable mention to Janet Baker, who I need to hear more of. She is phenomenal on Haitink's Das Lied von der Erde, which is my favorite of the few recordings I've heard, largely because of her. There is a recording of her singing the Kindertotenlieder with the Israeli Philharmonic under the baton of Lenny Bernstein, as part of his Mahler symphony cycle that I own, and I have yet to hear it. I just might have to correct this in the morning.

Damn it, I was hoping I could avoid this, but I think I feel a slight resurgence coming on in my obsession with Mahler... I went a good month and a half without hearing any of his symphonies.

[JBS]

As I said the Purchases thread, Hampson's Ruckertlieder is I think the best recording.

DFD did an excellent one singer version of Knaben Wunderhorn, as well as participate in one of the best two singer versions (with Schwarzkopf).

For the piano versions--which for most of the songs were the original versions--I like Gerharer.

[Jo498]

I have not heard Hampson but I think most of the Rückert-Lieder are better with contralto. I have Hampsons Kindertotenlieder as filler for the 6th with Bernstein and his piano accompanied Wunderhorn. Overall, I'd say he is good but not extraordinary. My favorite Hampson are the early Lieder in Berio's orchestration. (I think by now there are some other recordings of at least some of these but 20 years ago it was the first and only one; of course there are several of the original piano version)
The older recordings of Ludwig with Klemperer (?) on EMI are also recommendable. Another great contralto, Maureen Forrester, has done the Rückert with Fricsay (maybe hard to find, they were a filler to something else?) and what might still be the best orchestral Wunderhorn (with Rehfuss and Prohaska on Vanguard). I don't care for Schwarzkopf.
Another great but probably hard to find Wunderhorn is Baker/Evans/Morris although this is rough in some spots and especially Sir Geraint's diction doesn't make it a first recommendation. He yields to noone in sometimes rough characterization and even comedy as in the ass-cuckoo-contest
One CD version has a very nice "Gesellenlieder" with Roland Herrmann, but Fi-Di is also good in them as is Ludwig (although I prefer a baritone to contralto in this cycle.
And Baker/Evans do some of the songs (Schildwache Nachtlied, Lied des Verfolgten im Turm, Vergebliche Mueh and the Hussar's farewell (Wohlan die Zeit ist 'kommen) as "duets" which is philologically wrong. (I still like the theatrical effect although some find it silly)

[vers la flamme]

Well, JBS, I ended up ordering that Hampson/Bernstein/DG Lieder disc after reading your praise for it. I like what I heard and I found it for very cheap. I'll be excited to explore that.

I really need to get my hands on a Mahler Lieder disc with piano accompaniment! Looks like Gerhaher may be the one to get. I was also looking at the Janet Baker disc on Hyperion (?)

[Madiel]

I have the Janet Baker Hyperion disc, because it's the easiest way to get all of the early piano-based songs. To be honest I'm not sure that the songs besides Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen (which is included) are anything special, and I mean the compositions rather than the performances. But if you want those songs it seems a good means of getting them.

I don't know what is "philologically" wrong with duet versions of certain songs that clearly have more than one character in them, someone will have to explain that one to me. It can't be any more wrong than having contraltos singing songs that have a male perspective.

[Jo498]

No. There is a clear difference. Many songs are singable by ONE male or ONE female voice (with transposition if octave won't work). But alternating singers as in an operatic duet would be clearly indicated in the score, it would say "duet for alto and baritone" not "song for middle/high/low voice" or whatever. There is nothing in Mahler's scores indicating that two singers should alternate in e.g. "Der Schildwache Nachtlied" (the guard and the girl he remembers or dreams about).
There are hundreds of songs with dialogues or more than one lyrical voice, like in Schubert's Erlkönig narrator, father, son and erl king are all sung by one singer. (There were orchestral arrangements using two in the early 20th century but even they didn't use 4 as the poem could suggest).
That's why it is wrong to alternate singers within one song. And I thought it was hardly done anymore nowadays. I have a soft spot for the practice in some songs (maybe because I got to know them with Baker/Evans) but it can also get silly to some extent. And there are other songs that are even more clearly dialogues where it is usually not done, e.g. "Das irdische Leben" and "Wo die schönen Trompeten blasen".

[André]

I have not heard Hampson but I think most of the Rückert-Lieder are better with contralto. I have Hampsons Kindertotenlieder as filler for the 6th with Bernstein and his piano accompanied Wunderhorn. Overall, I'd say he is good but not extraordinary. My favorite Hampson are the early Lieder in Berio's orchestration. (I think by now there are some other recordings of at least some of these but 20 years ago it was the first and only one; of course there are several of the original piano version)
The older recordings of Ludwig with Klemperer (?) on EMI are also recommendable. Another great contralto, Maureen Forrester, has done the Rückert with Fricsay (maybe hard to find, they were a filler to something else?) and what might still be the best orchestral Wunderhorn (with Rehfuss and Prohaska on Vanguard). I don't care for Schwarzkopf.
Another great but probably hard to find Wunderhorn is Baker/Evans/Morris although this is rough in some spots and especially Sir Geraint's diction doesn't make it a first recommendation. He yields to noone in sometimes rough characterization and even comedy as in the ass-cuckoo-contest
One CD version has a very nice "Gesellenlieder" with Roland Herrmann, but Fi-Di is also good in them as is Ludwig (although I prefer a baritone to contralto in this cycle.
And Baker/Evans do some of the songs (Schildwache Nachtlied, Lied des Verfolgten im Turm, Vergebliche Mueh and the Hussar's farewell (Wohlan die Zeit ist 'kommen) as "duets" which is philologically wrong. (I still like the theatrical effect although some find it silly)

+ 1 for the Forrester Rückert Lieder. She is in glorious voice and gets excellent support from Fricsay. It is available coupled with Prohaska's excellent Das Knaben Wunderhorn (Forrester again, with the equally superb Heinz Rehfuss) on the Praga label. This is one indispensable Mahler recording !

+ 1 too for the Wyn Morris Wunderhorn !

[Jo498]

As for the early songs, I have not heard Baker's on hyperion (rather late in her career, I believe). They are not essential pieces but with a composer who wrote so litte as Mahler it, they are nice to have. And some are not inferior to the slighter ones from the Wunderhorn collection (like Wer hat dies Liedlein erdacht or Verlorne Müh).
My favorites are "Zu Strassburg auf der Schanz" (the first "deserter song" by Mahler), "Nicht wiedersehen" and "Ich ging mit Lust" (similar mood and almost on the level of "Ging heut morgen übers Feld"). Then there are ones like the dead cuckoo whose tunes were re-used in symphonies etc. Anyway, the Hampson/Berio disc is highly recommendable.

[vers la flamme]

Finally, I heard Mahler's 9th for the first time today. It was the Bernstein/NYPO/Sony performance. While I thought the opening movement was just incredible, I don't think the other three movements quite lived up to its promise. However, I suspect the problem is with my ears rather than the work itself, and will allow it plenty of time to grow on me, as I've had to do with the great Das Lied von der Erde.

Anyway, I also read and enjoyed the late Lewis Thomas' essay on Mahler's 9th, which I thought did a great job of summing up, in a few short paragraphs, the existential crisis of the late 20th century, which I think Mahler's music (as a whole) tended to foreshadow. Has anyone read it?

Finally, what are our favorite recordings of the work? As I've mentioned, it's new to me and I haven't heard very many. But I have been told great things about the Karajan/BP live recording, the Giulini/Chicago, and several others. I'm personally curious about the Klemperer and Walter recordings. I'm a big fan of Bernstein's Mahler and own his whole set (the first, Sony/Columbia cycle) but think it's worthwhile to branch out and hear other interpretations.