Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Jo498]

It all depends. When I was 17 I had been listening to classical for about 3 years or less. I think I had heard Mahler's 4th and mayb also the 1st and 2nd. I listened to or taped #9 from the radio. The very sound of the beginning with the muted horn was irritating to me and an almost 30 min first movement was very difficult, almost regardless of how difficult the music was. TBH I still find such long movements taxing.
One could also argue that someone who does not find a huge complex movement like the first of Mahler's 9th at least somewhat challenging, is missing something. That's not Zigeunerbaron (despite quoting another Strauss waltz), it's supposed to be demanding music.

[aukhawk]

I won't rise to that 

[vers la flamme]

I disagree that the inner movements are any lighter than the first and fourth. They are only just beginning to make sense to me. Each movement is its own tour de force, but especially the first. Talk about an emotional roller coaster. This is music of immense power, but I think it does not reveal itself to the listener all at once, but rather bit by bit. This is my listening experience anyway, YMMV, obviously. The only symphonies I find more challenging than the 9th are 3, 6, 8 and possibly 7. In my book, the bigger the challenge, the bigger the reward. Beginning to understand Mahler's 9th over the past couple months has been extremely enriching.

I listened to the Karajan live Mahler 9 this morning. Amazing stuff... it's as good as people say.

[JBS]

It all depends. When I was 17 I had been listening to classical for about 3 years or less. I think I had heard Mahler's 4th and mayb also the 1st and 2nd. I listened to or taped #9 from the radio. The very sound of the beginning with the muted horn was irritating to me and an almost 30 min first movement was very difficult, almost regardless of how difficult the music was. TBH I still find such long movements taxing.
One could also argue that someone who does not find a huge complex movement like the first of Mahler's 9th at least somewhat challenging, is missing something. That's not Zigeunerbaron (despite quoting another Strauss waltz), it's supposed to be demanding music.

When I first heard M9, I wondered why they didn't edit out the instruments warming up at the start of the symphony.

[springrite]

When I first heard M9, I wondered why they didn't edit out the instruments warming up at the start of the symphony.

Really? M9 opening is fairly conventional. It is the Berg VC that truly sound like tuning.

[vers la flamme]

Really? M9 opening is fairly conventional. It is the Berg VC that truly sound like tuning.

Conventional in what way? What other symphony do you know that starts anything like that? Agreed re: Berg. A beautiful piece.

[Jo498]

The Berg VC was written more than 20 years later. The beginning of Mahler's 9th may not be avantgarde for 1910. But for someone who has listened a few years to classical, mostly Mozart tto Brahms/Dvorak/Tchaikovsky it can be rather alienating. As I said at 17-18 I found the sounds the horn makes  simply ugly, could hardly make out any tunes etc. Compared to that the beginning of his 2nd or 6th is very straightforward and easily identiable for anyone familiar with Beethoven's and Brahms' symphonies (although these two were not quite as obsessed with alla marcia).

[dissily Mordentroge]

. . . . . . . Some of the others might show some oddities (such as the slight song finale of the 4th)

Slight song finale of the 4th? How, I wonder, would you have a child's view of heaven portrayed then?
Maybe you prefer the Wagnerian approach some vocalists inflict this movement with?
On the other hand I confess the text can come across as almost absurd unless rendered with an innocent 'childish' feeling and tone of voice
such as Schwarzkopf demonstrated.

[Jo498]

You are missing the point. The provocation is to have  a child's view of paradise (which is more like "Schlaraffenland" (Cockaigne) as a symphonic finale at all. It certainly was uncommon in late romanticism to have a lied within a symphony at all but clearly Urlicht in the second or the lied movements in the third as short intermezzi within a long symphony are less jarring than a lied as finale.
I think people who have basically grown up with Mahler whose music has been well established for at least half a century by now, can hardly appreciate how odd a lot of it must have appeared to the contemporaries.

[dissily Mordentroge]

You are missing the point. The provocation is to have  a child's view of paradise (which is more like ";" (Cockaigne) as a symphonic finale at all. It certainly was uncommon in late romanticism to have a lied within a symphony at all but clearly Urlicht in the second or the lied movements in the third as short intermezzi within a long symphony are less jarring than a lied as finale.
I think people who have basically grown up with Mahler whose music has been well established for at least half a century by now, can hardly appreciate how odd a lot of it must have appeared to the contemporaries.

Thank you for the symphonic musicology lecture. However, my comment was made due to the use of 'slight' as in "Some of the others might show some oddities (such as the slight song finale of the 4th)" 
Your usage of 'provocation' however I also find problematic. Problematic to whom? Modern audiences or one being exposed to the 4th at it's first performance? If the later I can agree. However the comment "Some of the others might show some oddities (such as the slight song finale of the 4th)' does not in any way reduce my objection to the use of 'slight'. If the final movement of Mahler's 4th can be described as slight with any accuracy I wish there were more such 'slight' movements to enjoy.
I can assure you my reaction upon first hearing the last movement of the 4th was to sink without question into its meaning and mood. Possibly that first exposure via Elisabeth Schwarzkopf's recording tainted my view forever as I find most subsequent performances lacking the innocence, youthful joy and childlike tone she managed to conveyso very convincingly
It is often claimed one's initial exposure to a work biases our view of those heard subsequently. I'm happy to be accused of that in this instance.

I cannot, no matter which way I look at or listen to the last movement of the 4th see anything odd about it unless some overly forceful prima donna taints it with a more 'mature' approach as most unfortunately have.

[Jo498]

I think you are reading a criticism or denigration into my remarks that was not intended at all.
Simply look at the symphonic tradition Mahler clearly was a part of. Vocal parts are rare, even in programmatic pieces and more often it is a choir for making a piece ever more monumental (like Mahler out-Beethovening Beethoven's 9th in his 2nd).
The whole 4th symphony is at least odd or challenging within this tradition. It uses a pseudo-Haydnesque tone at some places in the first movement and to have a 10 min song as a finale is very strange. And it is obviously slight compared to any instrumental finale by Brucker, Brahms or Beethoven and also compared to Mahler 1-3. This is simply stating facts, not denigrating the fourth or Das himmlische Leben as a bad piece. This is not at all my opinion or intention.

Note also that an older plan for the 3rd symphony was to have "Das himmlische Leben" as another intermezzo movement "Was mir das Kind erzählt" ("what the child tells me"; the eventual movements 2-6 had similar subtitles like "what the flowers tell me" etc.)

[ritter]

I tend to agree with Jo498's post above, and add that the Fourth is probably my favourite of all of Mahler's symphonies. Yes, it may be the odd man out, but it's oddities (mainly the subdued final lied movement) are strokes of genius IMHO.

On the other hand I confess the text can come across as almost absurd unless rendered with an innocent 'childish' feeling and tone of voice
such as Schwarzkopf demonstrated.

Strange how we can perceive performances in different ways. Mme. Schwarzkopf (in the Klemperer recording) sounds to me not in the least childlike and innocent, but rather like an angry Hausfrau. 

Welcome to the forum, btw, dissily Mordentroge. 

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Strange how we can perceive performances in different ways. Mme. Schwarzkopf (in the Klemperer recording) sounds to me not in the least childlike and innocent, but rather like an angry Hausfrau. 

Yes. I always feel like I'm sternly being reminded of not riding my bicycle on the pavement, listening to Schwarzkopf.

[André]

You are missing the point. The provocation is to have  a child's view of paradise (which is more like "Schlaraffenland" (Cockaigne) as a symphonic finale at all. It certainly was uncommon in late romanticism to have a lied within a symphony at all but clearly Urlicht in the second or the lied movements in the third as short intermezzi within a long symphony are less jarring than a lied as finale.
I think people who have basically grown up with Mahler whose music has been well established for at least half a century by now, can hardly appreciate how odd a lot of it must have appeared to the contemporaries.

+1.

Placed in its proper historical context the 4th is indeed a very unconventional work, esp. given that it was labeled a symphony, coming a mere 15 years after Brahms' own 4th symphony, a work that for many represents the acme of the symphonic form.

[André]

Crossxposted from the WAYL2 thread:

This stretches the concept of Schönberg's chamber performances for the Association for Private Musical Performances. Schönberg did start the work and called for an ensemble of string quintet, wind quartet, horn, piano, harmonium and 2 percussionists - a total of 14 players. He got halfway through the first movement before leaving it off in mid air. The Association folded very shortly after and Schönberg didn't return to the work. It was left to german composer Rainer Riehn (1941-2015) to finish the task along the lines of Schönberg's instrumental specifications.

There's another such arrangement that picks up on the Schönberg/Riehn concoction and twitches it to a different end, increasing the number of players (24) and singers (soprano, alto, tenor and baritone). It has been recorded by conductor/arranger Hansjörg Albrecht. I was very impressed by it. The 'pure' Schönberg/Riehn score has been recorded a few times and is no doubt played with some regularity. Whatever validity one is prepared to confer on that type of endeavour, in the end it's the musical results that justifies (or sinks) it.

Among the many emotions and feelings the original (Mahler) generates, the only one I miss here is the sensation of wallowing in a sea of beauty, with massed strings and triple/quadruple winds and brass. Mahler scored very transparently most of the time, with individual voices like contrabassoon, mandolin, harps given plenty of exposure. Obviously the huge orchestral textures cannot be replicated in an orchestral reduction, therefore expectations will not be the same. Within that entirely different perspective one hears the interplay of voice and instruments with startling clarity - much more immediate, with the feeling that everything is exposed, with no place to hide - musical hypervigilance, somto speak.

On this recording both voices are exceptionally well chosen (not always the case, marketing considerations often imposing less than ideal choices). As a matter of fact, I'd return to this recording just for the pleasure of hearing two healthy, easily produced voices singing with feeling and intelligence. A very valid alternative.

[dissily Mordentroge]

I tend to agree with Jo498's post above, and add that the Fourth is probably my favourite of all of Mahler's symphonies. Yes, it may be the odd man out, but it's oddities (mainly the subdued final lied movement) are strokes of genius IMHO.
Strange how we can perceive performances in different ways. Mme. Schwarzkopf (in the Klemperer recording) sounds to me not in the least childlike and innocent, but rather like an angry Hausfrau. 

Welcome to the forum, btw, dissily Mordentroge. 

Now that's a scary thought, Schwarzkopf as an angry Hausfrau. Myself I can't hear it in that recording, not even a hint of it. Subjectivity at work again.

[dissily Mordentroge]

The reason is because there is so much music that did not engage me at all upon first listen – let's take Mahler, at large, as an example – that I now count among my favorites. If I would have given up on Mahler so quickly my life would have lost a lot of richness, as he's now one of my very favorite composers.

During my early teenage years I was lucky enough to be exposed to Mahler via Bernstein and Walter's recordings. I suspect if I'd first encountered his symphonies and song cycles today I'd have been thoroughly turned off. I experience the majority of todays' performances as repressing the drama and often 'cosmological scale' of these works in what I take to be an attempt not to scare audiences. Others find Bernstein and Walter's et al far too theatrical, even hysterical.
In my misguided early teenage years I inherited my uncles high-end stereo system. A group of us rose to the challenge of listening to all of Mahler's symphonies in chronological order one after another. Took us an entire weekend but the experience has never left me. We also made the mistake of playing the entirety of Wagner's Ring Cycle over another weekend. I was a mess at the end of that little exercise as were a few others. I can't understand how live audiences will inflict the same discipline on themselves at Beirut.

As to first exposures to particular works not impressing one I have a long list of composers who repulsed me upon first listen but after repeated exposure have me enjoying them unreservedly. Messian, and Ligetti amongst them. On the other hand I've never been able to enjoy much of Bruckner or Sibelius's symphonies despite repeated attempts. This I cannot explain other than revealing I experience them as 'Much ado about nothing'.

[dissily Mordentroge]

Yes. I always feel like I'm sternly being reminded of not riding my bicycle on the pavement, listening to Schwarzkopf.

Well then, you should cease riding your bicycle on the pavement.

[relm1]

Conventional in what way? What other symphony do you know that starts anything like that? Agreed re: Berg. A beautiful piece.

What year were you born?  1870?

[dissily Mordentroge]

+1.

Placed in its proper historical context the 4th is indeed a very unconventional work, esp. given that it was labeled a symphony, coming a mere 15 years after Brahms' own 4th symphony, a work that for many represents the acme of the symphonic form.

'Acme of symphonic form'? Who writes these rules? Convention is one thing, musical necessity another.