Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Biffo]

Thoughts on Bernard Haitink's recordings of Mahler with the Royal Concertgebouw...? Are there highlights of the cycle that are worth seeking out over others? I know the 9th is supposed to be good, but I've not heard it. I really love the few Haitink Mahler recordings I have: the song cycles, including Das Lied von der Erde. The Concertgebouw sounds excellent...!

I bought Symphonies 1 - 4 back in LP days and they were my standby for many years. I still have great affection for them. I know Haitink's Concertgebouw recordings of the middle symphonies less well - the 8th hasn't had very good reviews down the the years. No 9 and Das Lied von der Erde are very fine indeed. When the 9th was first released it was described as the 'perfect Mahler 9' - forgotten by who, possibly Deryck Cooke.

[André]

Haitink's RCOA versions of nos 5, 7 (two of them) and 9 are magnificent. I also happen to appreciate his sobriety and perfect pacing in nos 2, 3 and 8. The latter needs to be played at a higher volume level, otherwise it sounds distant and dull. In the end, it the orchestra's show, not the conductor's, and it satisfies me more than most other cycles.

[vers la flamme]

Thanks for your thoughts, André and Biffo. He recorded much of the cycle (if not all of it...?) with the Berlin Philharmonic as well, and it looks like some duplicates with the RCO (I see two Mahler 4ths with different singers, same orchestra). I think what I'm most interested are the '60s recordings, but I'm curious as well to see if there is any love for the BPO Haitink records?

[Biffo]

Thanks for your thoughts, André and Biffo. He recorded much of the cycle (if not all of it...?) with the Berlin Philharmonic as well, and it looks like some duplicates with the RCO (I see two Mahler 4ths with different singers, same orchestra). I think what I'm most interested are the '60s recordings, but I'm curious as well to see if there is any love for the BPO Haitink records?

I have Nos 1 & 5 with the Berlin Philharmonic but don't rate them very highly, greatly prefer him in No 1 with the Concertgebouw. I also have him with the Dresden Staatskapelle in No 2 - a bit of a mixed bag, he seems to be trying too hard to rethink the work though the Finale is shattering.

[vers la flamme]

I have Nos 1 & 5 with the Berlin Philharmonic but don't rate them very highly, greatly prefer him in No 1 with the Concertgebouw. I also have him with the Dresden Staatskapelle in No 2 - a bit of a mixed bag, he seems to be trying too hard to rethink the work though the Finale is shattering.

Interesting, thanks. Am I alone in thinking that the Berlin Philharmonic is not the greatest Mahler orchestra in the world? Outside of a couple great recordings of the 9th (Barbirolli and Karajan live) I have not been terribly impressed with any BPO Mahler. They are a damn fine orchestra, surely. I just seem to usually prefer the Concertgebouw, the VPO, or even the New York Philharmonic when it comes to Mahler.

[vers la flamme]

Haitink's RCOA versions of nos 5, 7 (two of them) and 9 are magnificent. I also happen to appreciate his sobriety and perfect pacing in nos 2, 3 and 8. The latter needs to be played at a higher volume level, otherwise it sounds distant and dull. In the end, it the orchestra's show, not the conductor's, and it satisfies me more than most other cycles.

I'll give his 8th another chance. Thanks.

[Herman]

Andre, you were wondering about the 2020 Amsterdam Mahler Festival.

It has been cancelled due to the pandemic and social distancing.

People had been working on this for two years, organising things, and it is all gone. Imagine how that must feel...

[Herman]

About Haitink Mahler recordings.

Somehow the BPO recordings get little love, but I have 6 and 7 and like them fine (having to admit though that I have a hard time taking 'listening to Mahler on a home system' 100 % seriously. The music is a theatrical experience to me.)

I believe Haitink performed the Sixth with the Berliner Ph at a BBC Promenade concert in the late nineties, too. Now that performance was unforgettable. Just as a live performance with the London Philharmonic of the Seventh around 1992.

His Concertgebouw recordings are obviously great (best of which perhaps the Lied), a lot of people prefer the Xmas Matinee performances, and maybe you see where this is going. A man as repressed as Haitink did his best work in the concert hall and we really need a box with radio recordings.

[Mahlerian]

Thoughts on Bernard Haitink's recordings of Mahler with the Royal Concertgebouw...? Are there highlights of the cycle that are worth seeking out over others? I know the 9th is supposed to be good, but I've not heard it. I really love the few Haitink Mahler recordings I have: the song cycles, including Das Lied von der Erde. The Concertgebouw sounds excellent...!

I like that version of Das Lied as well. Some people have problems with the extremely dry acoustic, but I'm also fond of this recording, and the aforementioned acoustic means that a lot of the details are brought out:


Funny story about that Ninth. My undergrad school's library had a copy, but I was never able to listen to it, because the CD was damaged! Maybe that's why I never returned to that particular recording.


I heard the Second Symphony under Haitink at Tanglewood over a decade ago. I remember that being a fantastic experience, too.

[vers la flamme]

I'm listening to the Haitink Mahler 8 again. So far, I think, I'm enjoying it more than the last time. The sound is a little recessed which doesn't do the massive forces required of the work any favors. But the soloists are incredible, including Heather Harper and Hermann Prey. We'll see how I feel by the end of the disc, but I don't think it's as bad as people give it credit for.

[Herman]

Haitink's well-publicised lack of interest in nr 8 cannot have helped in the reputation of his recordings of said work.

His Xmas matinee recording of the piece is IMHO terrific, except of course for Gwyneth Jones' infamous glitch in the last minute of the piece.

[vers la flamme]

Haitink's well-publicised lack of interest in nr 8 cannot have helped in the reputation of his recordings of said work.

His Xmas matinee recording of the piece is IMHO terrific, except of course for Gwyneth Jones' infamous glitch in the last minute of the piece.

This being the case, we have only the excellent playing of the orchestra, and the great singing to thank, as André said: "it's the orchestra's show". Somehow, his lack of interest in the work was not enough to completely stifle the music-making, because in the end I really enjoyed it. I finally had that "lightbulb" moment with Mahler's 8th where I realized what great music it is.

[Herman]

No, no, you don't get a good Eighth by just letting the orchestra do its work.

It's more complicated than that. In the moment Haitink used to get into it, but in his typical fashion he used to say he didn't really like performing the Eighth. That kind of puts a damper on it.

Overall Haitink has been pretty vocal about things he didn't like in his typical 'letting steam off afterwards' fashion. His bad English (after living in England for decades) did not help either.

[vers la flamme]

No, no, you don't get a good Eighth by just letting the orchestra do its work.

It's more complicated than that. In the moment Haitink used to get into it, but in his typical fashion he used to say he didn't really like performing the Eighth. That kind of puts a damper on it.

Overall Haitink has been pretty vocal about things he didn't like in his typical 'letting steam off afterwards' fashion. His bad English (after living in England for decades) did not help either.

Ah, OK. You know a lot more about Haitink than I do. All I know is I enjoyed the performance.

[Herman]

Haitink's Xmas Matinee M8 is still my go to / guilty pleasure.

[vers la flamme]

This may be a morbid question, but was there ever a tenor to sing Der Trunkene im Frühling who was a bona fide addict? I can see this being interesting kind of like how Kathleen Ferrier sung Der Abschied so beautifully while knowing she was near death.

[vers la flamme]

Favorite recordings of Das klagende Lied...? I ought to listen to it I think.

[ritter]

This may be a morbid question, but was there ever a tenor to sing Der Trunkene im Frühling who was a bona fide addict? I can see this being interesting kind of like how Kathleen Ferrier sung Der Abschied so beautifully while knowing she was near death.

Well, the much lamented Fritz Wunderlich (who appears in the legendary Klemperer recording of DLvdE) apparently was quite fond of his drink. The talk in musical circles in Vienna was that the tragic fall that led to his untimely dead was caused by the fact that he was completely inebriated when it happened. 

[Mahlerian]

Favorite recordings of Das klagende Lied...? I ought to listen to it I think.

Most recordings are of a hybrid version that Mahler never sanctioned, grafting the original Part I onto the revised Parts II and III (because Part I was cut out of the revision entirely).  If you don't mind that, the Chailly has served me well over the years:



This video recording has the complete original version, which to my knowledge was only otherwise recorded by Kent Nagano:



There are a LOT of differences between the revised and unrevised versions of the later movements. The orchestration is, naturally, far more refined in the revised versions, and he definitely improved some things, but the original is still worth hearing.


Musically I think Das klagende Lied is certainly not a mature work; it's interesting and contains some good parts but a lot of really awkward things too that would never appear in any of Mahler's later writing.

[Biffo]

Favorite recordings of Das klagende Lied...? I ought to listen to it I think.

There are three versions of Das Klagende Lied

(1) The original three-part version - as far as I know only Nagano/Halle has recorded this on CD; there is a DVD from Jurowski and the LPO
(2) The heavily revised two-part version that Mahler performed. There are several recordings of this; I have Haitink, Boulez (DG) and Kubelik, all fine recordings, it depends on what you want as a coupling.
(3) The hybrid version confected by the record companies. When Mahler revised the work he discarded the first part, Waldmärchen; the score survived. Starting with Boulez (CBS) the work was issued as Das klagende Lied but it was really Mahler's two part version with Waldmärchen bolted on to it. Chailly, Rattle and others have done this. This hybrid is not what Mahler wanted and it is not always easily possible to tell this from the disc information. However, if you want to hear all three parts you may want to go for one of these version, try Rattle.