Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[André]

Rögner, like Kegel, Konwitschny, Masur and Sanderling spent many years working in the former GDR (aka East Germany). For that reason they are not all that well known - except Masur and Sanderling in their late career, after their emigration to the West. They rank with the best conductors from Germany. Rögner's Bruckner cycle has good claims for a first spot (he conducts 4-9, nos 1-3 are given to other conductors).

Fear not, for that M3 recording is excellently played and recorded. 

[MusicTurner]

Rögner, like Kegel, Konwitschny, Masur and Sanderling spent many years working in the former GDR (aka East Germany). For that reason they are not all that well known - except Masur and Sanderling in their late career, after their emigration to the West. They rank with the best conductors from Germany. Rögner's Bruckner cycle has good claims for a first spot (he conducts 4-9, nos 1-3 are given to other conductors).

Fear not, for that M3 recording is excellently played and recorded. 

+1, some very fine Bruckner.

Roegner's orchestral Janacek is surprisingly bland however, maybe he didn't have enough time to prepare for that recording.

[vers la flamme]

I finally went back to the 5th today. I started to listen to the Karajan/BPO recording, but I turned it off after the first movement. There appeared to be something missing, but I couldn't tell what. I know it's a controversial recording with more detractors than admirers, but I enjoyed it on first listen. Today, not so much.

So I started over with Boulez and Vienna. What a difference. For one, the VPO are just about the perfect orchestra for Mahler (alongside the Concertgebouw, IMO) though they came to his music relatively late—which raises the question, who was it who "whipped them into shape" to being one of the great Mahler orchestras? Are we to give full credit to Bernstein, there? But I digress. The real highlight of the recording is Boulez's signature clarity of textures. This is the only recording I've heard where I feel like I can hear everything that's going on at all times. I can follow the thread more easily. On the other hand, it seems he is a bit unflexible with tempi compared to any other conductor. He keeps it very steady, which might be seen as a fault. I enjoyed it, particularly in this symphony. I could see that kind of an approach being less effective in e.g. the 3rd.

Anyway, no qualms with calling this my favorite recording, but I feel like I owe it to myself to have a recording on hand that is the opposite, ie. very dramatic, dark and intense. I thought Karajan might be just that, but meh, it appears not. Still I'll keep it and give it another shot in the future. So I'm considering one of Tennstedt's recordings, the famous Barbirolli, maybe. Where does Rattle's BPO recording fall on the spectrum? It seems to have garnered good reviews; from what I can tell from samples it seems to be another detail-oriented reading like Boulez, with maybe a little more flexibility. Note I have Bernstein/NY and I do like it, especially the extremely beautiful Adagietto, but I have some problems with the two outer movements.

Anyway, the fifth was even better than I remembered it. Anyone else listening to the 5th lately?

PS. I ordered Boulez's recording of the 6th on the strength of this one. Excited to hear it!

[Jo498]

Have you heard the Bernstein/Vienna 5th from the 1980s (DG)?

[krummholz]

Have you heard the Bernstein/Vienna 5th from the 1980s (DG)?

Today it's probably my favorite Mahler 5. On first hearing though, both the Scherzo and the Rondo-Finale sounded too slow, so this version might be an acquired taste.

[Jo498]

It's overall fairly slow but consistent, I'd say.

[Mahlerian]

I finally went back to the 5th today. I started to listen to the Karajan/BPO recording, but I turned it off after the first movement. There appeared to be something missing, but I couldn't tell what. I know it's a controversial recording with more detractors than admirers, but I enjoyed it on first listen. Today, not so much.

Karajan had no affinity for Mahler at all. He rebalanced all of the orchestration and it sounds like the work of a different (and significantly worse) composer. There's one place in the scherzo of the Sixth where he speeds up when Mahler says to slow down and slows down when Mahler says to speed up. He tries to make Mahler sound like Strauss, and I can think of few worse things to do to him.

Edit: I will say, though, that the worst Mahler 5 I've heard wasn't Karajan's, but Ozawa's with the BSO. I don't know how it went so wrong, but it surely did.

So I started over with Boulez and Vienna. What a difference. For one, the VPO are just about the perfect orchestra for Mahler (alongside the Concertgebouw, IMO) though they came to his music relatively late—which raises the question, who was it who "whipped them into shape" to being one of the great Mahler orchestras? Are we to give full credit to Bernstein, there? But I digress. The real highlight of the recording is Boulez's signature clarity of textures. This is the only recording I've heard where I feel like I can hear everything that's going on at all times. I can follow the thread more easily. On the other hand, it seems he is a bit unflexible with tempi compared to any other conductor. He keeps it very steady, which might be seen as a fault. I enjoyed it, particularly in this symphony. I could see that kind of an approach being less effective in e.g. the 3rd.

I agree for the most part, just a quibble that Boulez's tempi are actually more flexible than most people seem to realize, but they aren't exaggerated to the same degree as a lot of conductors.

I once read someone say that in the Ninth's second movement he didn't differentiate at all between the three different tempo markings, but this is not at all true. I once checked with a metronome and the difference between the fastest and slowest was something on the order of 40 BPM! We should be careful not to confuse subjective perceptions of fast and slow with musical tempo.

Also, Boulez's Third is fantastic. Don't pass it up!

Re: The Vienna Philharmonic and Mahler, I think that (although before the Anschluss they performed his music under Mahler himself, Walter, and others), the modern tradition was probably developed at least in part by Bernstein.

[vers la flamme]

Karajan had no affinity for Mahler at all. He rebalanced all of the orchestration and it sounds like the work of a different (and significantly worse) composer. There's one place in the scherzo of the Sixth where he speeds up when Mahler says to slow down and slows down when Mahler says to speed up. He tries to make Mahler sound like Strauss, and I can think of few worse things to do to him.

I agree for the most part, just a quibble that Boulez's tempi are actually more flexible than most people seem to realize, but they aren't exaggerated to the same degree as a lot of conductors.

I once read someone say that in the Ninth's second movement he didn't differentiate at all between the three different tempo markings, but this is not at all true. I once checked with a metronome and the difference between the fastest and slowest was something on the order of 40 BPM! We should be careful not to confuse subjective perceptions of fast and slow with musical tempo.

Also, Boulez's Third is fantastic. Don't pass it up!

Re: The Vienna Philharmonic and Mahler, I think that (although before the Anschluss they performed his music under Mahler himself, Walter, and others), the modern tradition was probably developed at least in part by Bernstein.

What do you think about Karajan's live Mahler 9? I love it. I originally bought his 5th on the strength of that 9th, it doesn't live up to it at all.

Boulez's tempi are not totally inflexible, you're right. He just seemed much steadier than others in the 5th. I haven't heard any of his other Mahler records yet. But as you've mentioned it, I'll look out for the 3rd if I can find it cheap. Listening to samples now, it sounds quite good. I'm still curious about the Nagano 3rd, and I might pick up a copy while it's still available cheaply. I also ordered the Haitink/Berlin 3. The 3rd is a symphony I'm still working on trying to crack. I enjoy parts of it very much, but I seldom find myself in the mood to hear the whole thing. I only have the Bernstein/NY/Sony which I think is supposed to be one of the greatest. 

Have you heard the Bernstein/Vienna 5th from the 1980s (DG)?

No I have not. I'm debating whether I want to get the Bernstein/DG box while it's still available for REALLY cheap, or whether to just seek out individual releases. The only DG Bernstein Mahler I have is the great Lieder disc with the VPO and Thomas Hampson.

[Mahlerian]

What do you think about Karajan's live Mahler 9? I love it. I originally bought his 5th on the strength of that 9th, it doesn't live up to it at all.

Probably unfairly, I haven't listened to that 9 because I hated the Mahler recordings I've heard from him so much (Fifth, Sixth, and the Kindertotenlieder, despite a fine performance from Ludwig). I really should listen to it at some point, and try to be as unbiased as I can.

Boulez's tempi are not totally inflexible, you're right. He just seemed much steadier than others in the 5th. I haven't heard any of his other Mahler records yet. But as you've mentioned it, I'll look out for the 3rd if I can find it cheap. Listening to samples now, it sounds quite good. I'm still curious about the Nagano 3rd, and I might pick up a copy while it's still available cheaply. I also ordered the Haitink/Berlin 3. The 3rd is a symphony I'm still working on trying to crack. I enjoy parts of it very much, but I seldom find myself in the mood to hear the whole thing. I only have the Bernstein/NY/Sony which I think is supposed to be one of the greatest.

I haven't heard Nagano's Third. I'm not too much of a fan of his conducting generally. I've enjoyed both of Haitink's recordings of the piece, as well as Boulez, Bernstein in his VPO video recording, and the live performance I attended at Tanglewood a few years ago led by Nelsons. Solti was my introduction to the work (as well as the Eighth), but I don't think I'd care for that version as much now.

[André]

I finally went back to the 5th today. I started to listen to the Karajan/BPO recording, but I turned it off after the first movement. There appeared to be something missing, but I couldn't tell what. I know it's a controversial recording with more detractors than admirers, but I enjoyed it on first listen. Today, not so much.

So I started over with Boulez and Vienna. What a difference. For one, the VPO are just about the perfect orchestra for Mahler (alongside the Concertgebouw, IMO) though they came to his music relatively late—which raises the question, who was it who "whipped them into shape" to being one of the great Mahler orchestras? Are we to give full credit to Bernstein, there? But I digress. The real highlight of the recording is Boulez's signature clarity of textures. This is the only recording I've heard where I feel like I can hear everything that's going on at all times. I can follow the thread more easily. On the other hand, it seems he is a bit unflexible with tempi compared to any other conductor. He keeps it very steady, which might be seen as a fault. I enjoyed it, particularly in this symphony. I could see that kind of an approach being less effective in e.g. the 3rd.

Anyway, no qualms with calling this my favorite recording, but I feel like I owe it to myself to have a recording on hand that is the opposite, ie. very dramatic, dark and intense. I thought Karajan might be just that, but meh, it appears not. Still I'll keep it and give it another shot in the future. So I'm considering one of Tennstedt's recordings, the famous Barbirolli, maybe. Where does Rattle's BPO recording fall on the spectrum? It seems to have garnered good reviews; from what I can tell from samples it seems to be another detail-oriented reading like Boulez, with maybe a little more flexibility. Note I have Bernstein/NY and I do like it, especially the extremely beautiful Adagietto, but I have some problems with the two outer movements.

Anyway, the fifth was even better than I remembered it. Anyone else listening to the 5th lately?

PS. I ordered Boulez's recording of the 6th on the strength of this one. Excited to hear it!

Avoid Barbirolli, then. I came to appreciate his interpretation, but at first I thought it overly slow, with blunted edges. Kubelik is intense and dramatic, but not dark. Different visions, different results. Farberman is very slow but extremely dark (love it). Barshai, Neumann and Haitink COA give it to you straight. I find them dramatic and intense. They may well be my favourites.

[ritter]

Boulez is very scrupulous in having the oboe and cor anglais play hinaufziehend in the fourth movement, "O Mensch", of the Third. Look out for that if you get the recording, vers la flamme, because it's a rather spectacular effect.

Having said that, my go-to Mahler Third is Abbado's first recording with the VPO, not least for Jessye Norman's simply incomparable and breathtaking rendition of "O Mensch". One of the most beautiful vocal renditions of anything I know.

I'm not that much of a fan of the Fifth, but am glad you enjoyed PB's recording of it. You're absolutely right about the clarity of textures, which is a great advantage in thus work. FWIW, some years ago in the (now dormant) Spanish language Mahler forum, based on a "blind tasting" of the finale of the symphony, the Boulez recording "won" by a significant margin (followed by the often overlooked but superb Gary Bertini and then by Abbado with the CSO).

As for Boulez's Sixth with the VPO, you're in for a treat. The recording caused a minor sensation when it was first released in the nineties, and remains a high point of the conductor's whole Mahler cycle. The nadir, IMHO, is the Eighth, which was the last to be recorded; Boulez—along with other distinguished Mahlerians—never showed much enthusiasm for the work. The only "strange" thing about Boulez's Sixth is the prominence of the cowbells in the andante. One would thing a whole herd of Simmental cattle had been let loose in the Konzertverein 

[vers la flamme]

@Mahlerian, please do check out that recording. I think with complete honesty you will find something good in it. I haven't heard his studio 9th, which has its partisans, but I'm of the opinion that the live record is a stone cold classic.

@ritter, thanks for your post; I will keep that in mind for whenever I hear Boulez's 3rd. I'm so pumped to hear the 6th! It's en route to me now and I hope to hear it by the end of the week. Somehow I managed to land a copy for $1.29 on ebay, VG, with cheap shipping—I had to jump on it. Too bad about the 8th. I've just come around on it and I think it's brilliant music in every sense of the word. I had a feeling that Boulez's clarifying style would be just perfect for the detailed score. But you're not the first one I've heard rate it poorly (though I do have a couple of friends who swear by it).

[Jo498]

Gielen also has the Oboe effect in the 3rd, I don't remember how Nagano's woodwind players do it, unfortunately.

As for Bernstein/Vienna or more generally his DG recordings; some of these were among my first Mahler recordings (1,4,5,6) I got in the late 1980s, so they have a special place for me, even if as in the 1st and especially the 4th I am not totally convinced. I have not heard the others (because I eventually got the complete NY recordings and I am not enough of a fan to get also the DG complete). The originally issues have quite beautiful covers, so this might be a reason for some collectors to get them separately.

[vers la flamme]

Gielen also has the Oboe effect in the 3rd, I don't remember how Nagano's woodwind players do it, unfortunately.

As for Bernstein/Vienna or more generally his DG recordings; some of these were among my first Mahler recordings (1,4,5,6) I got in the late 1980s, so they have a special place for me, even if as in the 1st and especially the 4th I am not totally convinced. I have not heard the others (because I eventually got the complete NY recordings and I am not enough of a fan to get also the DG complete). The originally issues have quite beautiful covers, so this might be a reason for some collectors to get them separately.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. You're right, those are beautiful covers, especially 5, 6 & 3. But the whole set for ~$20 is hard to pass up on, really hard. I already have the Bernstein/New York/Sony cycle, so that's the only thing keeping me from pulling the trigger on that deal right now. Maybe someday, in the future.

Another cycle I'm trying desperately not to buy is Kubelik/Bavarian RSO, also on DG. I don't *need* another Mahler cycle, but... I think this is the one I don't need.

[Jo498]

The Bernstein/DG is probably worth it although you will always find partisans for either the NYPO or the Vienna? video recordings.

Kubelik also used to be really cheap. Most of it was also dirt cheap as singles on DG resonance/Musikfest (at a time when Bernstein/DG was whopping full price). Again I have about half of it (1,4-7) and some of it is very good. The 1st is probably my favorite among the 10-12 I have heard.
The sound is not that great, but it is very idiomatic. (I think one Israeli guy in a another forum used to claim that only Walter and Kubelik got the Klezmer inspired passages in the 1st and 5th right.)
But the best Kubelik Mahler I have heard is maybe the live LvdE on Audite with Kmentt and Baker

[ritter]

The Kubelik cycle could also be bought really cheap in this set, but it seems to be OOP now:



The LvB cycle there is really interesting, with each symphony entrusted to a different orchestra. The Pastoral with the a Orchestre de Paris is delightful.

I concur with Jo498 regarding Kubelik's Mahler First, which was my first encounter with the work ( in a 2 LP set the also included Fischer-Diskau's fabulous Lieder eines fahrenden Gesellen); it's a very, very good rendition. OTOH, I was very disappointed with the Seventh, which I found surprisingly (given the forces involved) sloppy in terms of orchestral execution, and wayward in terms of conception.

[JBS]

No I have not. I'm debating whether I want to get the Bernstein/DG box while it's still available for REALLY cheap, or whether to just seek out individual releases. The only DG Bernstein Mahler I have is the great Lieder disc with the VPO and Thomas Hampson.

In that case you already have the best installment of the DG cycle. (I think it's the greatest recording of the Lieder ever made, in fact.)
I think the DG 2nd is among the best recordings of that symphony.
He used a boy soprano in the Fourth, I seem to be one of the few people who think that choice was not a mistake.

[ritter]

...
I think the DG 2nd is among the best recordings of that symphony.
...

I think that recording is marred by the tempo of the second movement. The andante moderato turns into a plodding adagio (at moments, I feel as if  the music is going to grind to a complete halt).

[vers la flamme]

In that case you already have the best installment of the DG cycle. (I think it's the greatest recording of the Lieder ever made, in fact.)
I think the DG 2nd is among the best recordings of that symphony.
He used a boy soprano in the Fourth, I seem to be one of the few people who think that choice was not a mistake.

I've been curious about that 4th; I don't think the choice to use a boy soprano is a mistake in and of itself, but I can see how it might lead to something bad. I do like his NYPO 4th with Reri Grist.

As for Kubelik I might collect the Audite releases if and when I find them for cheap. I found his Audite Mahler 1 at a record store in a budget box for $3 just before all this quarantining started going down. I'm sure that Das Lied is great too, but I have enough favorites already to not be seeking out alternatives for that work at the moment.

[aukhawk]

A big +1 for Boulez's 3rd.  Also don't overlook the developing cycle by Vanska/Minnesota (1,2,4,5,6 so far) or that by Ivan Fischer/Budapest.