Mahler Mania, Rebooted

Started by Greta, May 01, 2007, 08:06:38 PM

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LKB

Quote from: Leo K. on November 11, 2022, 09:06:45 AM
Thanks! I was sick so I wasn't able to go yesterday to see Vanska conduct my beloved Mahler 3 (on 11-10).

I hope you're feeling better soon, if not already.
Mit Flügeln, die ich mir errungen...

KevinP

What are some of the best Mahler recordings of, say, the last ten years?

One of my all-time favourite composers, but I haven't kept up.

relm1

#5182
Quote from: KevinP on November 15, 2022, 02:57:29 AM
What are some of the best Mahler recordings of, say, the last ten years?

One of my all-time favourite composers, but I haven't kept up.

Some people speak highly of the Minnesota Vanska cycle.  I find them a bit unorthodox but that's not a bad thing when there are so many very fine cycles.  Gabriel Feltz's new cycle seems interesting, but I haven't listened yet.  I liked the samples I heard. 

Gabriel Feltz's cycle:

Leo K.

Quote from: LKB on November 14, 2022, 09:08:52 PM
I hope you're feeling better soon, if not already.
Thanks so much, I'm still healing from this Bronchitis.

Brian

Yesterday was a big day. I listened to Mahler's Seventh for the first time ever! Bernstein/NYPO/Columbia, volume cranked up.

I've got one negative thought that might get me in trouble, and then a bunch of positive ones. Negative one first: this piece does in large measure sound derivative of previous Mahler works. People cite Shostakovich as an example of a composer with a "samey" or unchanging sound world, but Mahler's is too: his orchestration has tics (like screeching high clarinets), his harmonies exist in a certain narrow spectrum a lot of the time, and even his melodies share shapes (he has favorite intervals). Listening to 5, 6, and 7, I get the impression that melodic inspiration became more challenging for him after the initial song-cycle wellspring dried up. There are memorable tunes in each, but also many tunes that seem derived from the youthful collections.

The first movement reminded me a lot of the first few minutes of the Third: the march rhythms, gloomy mood, turbulence. The second movement reminded me of the Third's first movement even more, and I heard quotes from the same movement in the finale, too. Now, the good thing is I love the first movement of the Third, so this was a major plus for me.

This is a big, shaggy symphony, and it has some fat. In the first movement, at roughly 6' and 15', I started tiring of the primary thematic material, which is incredibly repetitive and doesn't seem to develop much. But each time, Mahler saves the movement: first with that spectacular nocturnal interlude (a little overlong maybe, but pure magic, and honestly evocative of Richard Strauss at his most expressionist), and then with the big whomp of an ending. The second and third movements immediately jump onto the list of my favorite Mahler movements and moments. What an awesome awesome rondo full of cool ideas Nachtmusik I is. Nonstop fun, and the same goes for the scherzo. Hearing the extremely loud, fierce NYPO tuba, I wondered if that's where Revueltas got the idea for Sensemayá. The viola solo is great.

Nachtmusik II is the hardest for me to process. It's labeled "Andante amoroso," which got me prepared for a romantic nighttime serenade a la Berlioz' love scene from R&J. But no, this is a weird, stuttering serenade, where the romantic warmth I was expecting is only heard two or three times in 15 minutes. Otherwise, it sort of fumbles around. I also didn't like most of the mandolin part (which in this recording sounds more like a zither? huh). I like lots of strumming and sustained notes, which Mahler's mandolin occasionally does, but mostly it plucks along single notes with the orchestra, which feels like misuse/underuse. If I was Christopher Walken, I would say this piece has enough cowbell...but needs more mandolin!

The finale absolutely rules. Mahler always favors bizarre finale structures, whether they're a half-hour long with choir, or a slow movement, or a non-finale song, or bear the weight of the whole symphony's architecture. To me, this is the most successful Mahler finale that could be construed as "normal"-ish. Of course, it is far from normal. But it's a freaking delight. I heard so much stuff, too; it's kind of like a jubilee carnival run by an antiques dealer showing you all the stuff he's collected over the years. The tuning of the timpani reminded me of Renaissance dances. The winds reminded me of his Third. There's a startling Turkish passage that I must say is vastly more Turkish and more convincing than any faux-Turkish music written by any classical composer prior to that point. There are loads of jokes. And the ending, which apparently is controversial??, is absolutely 100% perfect. Immediately made sense to me. The finale absolutely made me grin.

I could have probably lost 3-4 minutes of the first movement and half of Nachtmusik II, but for a very first listen to a humongous and complex piece, this was a total success and a delight. What fun! All that remains to add is that Bernstein, for all his reputation as an emotional/histrionic Mahler conductor, is actually a very clear guide to the score. It's obvious that this is a piece where the conductor can screw up a lot of different stuff. You could hear a balance issue or phrasing choice every 5 seconds. And then there's the structure as a whole, which is enormous and has all sorts of digressions, sidebars, interludes, rondo episodes, repetitions, etc. etc. I can imagine a lot of conductors and orchestras get completely lost. The care that was lavished on this recording session is obvious. Amazing performance.

Woohoo!

TLDR: It's the 1812 Overture with cowbells instead of cannons!

Herman

interesting you like the M7 finale so much. Most people don't.

If you want to give another look at Mahler 7, try the Xmas matinee with Haitink and the Concertgebouw:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEoYrRBAGqA&t=4506s

Leo K.

Quote from: Brian on November 28, 2022, 07:42:44 AMYesterday was a big day. I listened to Mahler's Seventh for the first time ever! Bernstein/NYPO/Columbia, volume cranked up.

I've got one negative thought that might get me in trouble, and then a bunch of positive ones. Negative one first: this piece does in large measure sound derivative of previous Mahler works. People cite Shostakovich as an example of a composer with a "samey" or unchanging sound world, but Mahler's is too: his orchestration has tics (like screeching high clarinets), his harmonies exist in a certain narrow spectrum a lot of the time, and even his melodies share shapes (he has favorite intervals). Listening to 5, 6, and 7, I get the impression that melodic inspiration became more challenging for him after the initial song-cycle wellspring dried up. There are memorable tunes in each, but also many tunes that seem derived from the youthful collections.

The first movement reminded me a lot of the first few minutes of the Third: the march rhythms, gloomy mood, turbulence. The second movement reminded me of the Third's first movement even more, and I heard quotes from the same movement in the finale, too. Now, the good thing is I love the first movement of the Third, so this was a major plus for me.

This is a big, shaggy symphony, and it has some fat. In the first movement, at roughly 6' and 15', I started tiring of the primary thematic material, which is incredibly repetitive and doesn't seem to develop much. But each time, Mahler saves the movement: first with that spectacular nocturnal interlude (a little overlong maybe, but pure magic, and honestly evocative of Richard Strauss at his most expressionist), and then with the big whomp of an ending. The second and third movements immediately jump onto the list of my favorite Mahler movements and moments. What an awesome awesome rondo full of cool ideas Nachtmusik I is. Nonstop fun, and the same goes for the scherzo. Hearing the extremely loud, fierce NYPO tuba, I wondered if that's where Revueltas got the idea for Sensemayá. The viola solo is great.

Nachtmusik II is the hardest for me to process. It's labeled "Andante amoroso," which got me prepared for a romantic nighttime serenade a la Berlioz' love scene from R&J. But no, this is a weird, stuttering serenade, where the romantic warmth I was expecting is only heard two or three times in 15 minutes. Otherwise, it sort of fumbles around. I also didn't like most of the mandolin part (which in this recording sounds more like a zither? huh). I like lots of strumming and sustained notes, which Mahler's mandolin occasionally does, but mostly it plucks along single notes with the orchestra, which feels like misuse/underuse. If I was Christopher Walken, I would say this piece has enough cowbell...but needs more mandolin!

The finale absolutely rules. Mahler always favors bizarre finale structures, whether they're a half-hour long with choir, or a slow movement, or a non-finale song, or bear the weight of the whole symphony's architecture. To me, this is the most successful Mahler finale that could be construed as "normal"-ish. Of course, it is far from normal. But it's a freaking delight. I heard so much stuff, too; it's kind of like a jubilee carnival run by an antiques dealer showing you all the stuff he's collected over the years. The tuning of the timpani reminded me of Renaissance dances. The winds reminded me of his Third. There's a startling Turkish passage that I must say is vastly more Turkish and more convincing than any faux-Turkish music written by any classical composer prior to that point. There are loads of jokes. And the ending, which apparently is controversial??, is absolutely 100% perfect. Immediately made sense to me. The finale absolutely made me grin.

I could have probably lost 3-4 minutes of the first movement and half of Nachtmusik II, but for a very first listen to a humongous and complex piece, this was a total success and a delight. What fun! All that remains to add is that Bernstein, for all his reputation as an emotional/histrionic Mahler conductor, is actually a very clear guide to the score. It's obvious that this is a piece where the conductor can screw up a lot of different stuff. You could hear a balance issue or phrasing choice every 5 seconds. And then there's the structure as a whole, which is enormous and has all sorts of digressions, sidebars, interludes, rondo episodes, repetitions, etc. etc. I can imagine a lot of conductors and orchestras get completely lost. The care that was lavished on this recording session is obvious. Amazing performance.

Woohoo!

TLDR: It's the 1812 Overture with cowbells instead of cannons!

Thanks for sharing your impressions on the 7th. In my mind the 7th has a stylistic simularity with the 5th through 7th symphonies (although the 3rd symphony does seem to find it's way to the first movement of the 7th).

The 8th seems to hark back to symphonies 2 through 4. The 9th seems it's own world yet it's definitely Mahler's style.

A poster on the Mahler board says the finale of the 7th throws us into the lap of the 8th Symphony and I agree!

Todd

Quote from: Brian on November 28, 2022, 07:42:44 AMYesterday was a big day. I listened to Mahler's Seventh for the first time ever! Bernstein/NYPO/Columbia, volume cranked up.

Wow, first time.  Lucky you. 

I suggest Barenboim's recording as a possible follow-up.  He smites all comers, even Lenny.  Sonics are spiffy.  This symphony is very performance dependent for me - in contrast to the First, which typically sounds at least enjoyable - and some conductors whiff big time. 
The universe is change; life is opinion. - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

People would rather believe than know - E.O. Wilson

Propaganda death ensemble - Tom Araya

JBS

My favorite Seventh is Abbado/BPO. But Haitink and Barenboim aren't bad choices.

Hollywood Beach Broadwalk

Mapman

Quote from: Brian on November 28, 2022, 07:42:44 AMYesterday was a big day. I listened to Mahler's Seventh for the first time ever! Bernstein/NYPO/Columbia, volume cranked up.

I mostly agree with your assessment of Mahler's 7th. When I listened to it for the first time, I also noticed the stylistic similarities to the 3rd symphony. (And that was my first recording, too)

The 2nd movement may be my favorite of the symphony. I sometimes think of the opening as like a "ballet of giant insects".

When I saw the Berliner Philharmoniker perform the 7th recently, I was particularly impressed with their performance of the 4th movement. I think that part of it was that I could hear the mandolin (and guitar) well. (They also played beautifully!)

And the finale is a lot of fun!

Spotted Horses

I wouldn't say the Mahler invented a new composition technique for each symphony, there is stylistic development as well as common mannerisms running through my favorite works, the 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th, although the 9th is more of a departure. The 7th recently became a favorite, perhaps second after the 9th, after listening to Vaclav Neumann's recording with the Czech Philharmonic.
There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

Jo498

Where are "screeching high clarinets"? Clarinets in Mahler are often playing folksy passages but they rarely are high or screeching, more "bubbling" in the main/middle register and it's mostly ordinary A/B clarinet not the higher E flat clarinet. There is that brief solo at the beginning of the 5th finale that goes up fairly but I don't recall anything as screeching as the witch sabbat variant of the idee fixe in Berlioz.

It's true that Mahler often uses "stock motives", mostly marches and laendler/waltz-like ones (or occasionally chorales or grazioso menuets) but this seems a feature, not a bug and as common in the first 3-4 symphonies (and many songs, especially Wunderhorn collection) as in the later ones.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

LKB

Mr. Hurwitz is excited about the recently released Ninth with Rattle conducting the BRSO, recorded live.

I haven't done more than skim through portions of the first movement, but I heard some things I liked, and also a few I'm not sure about.

Here's Movt. 1:

https://youtu.be/YuAd-PrWoJQ
Mit Flügeln, die ich mir errungen...

SurprisedByBeauty

Quote from: Brian on November 28, 2022, 07:42:44 AMYesterday was a big day. I listened to Mahler's Seventh for the first time ever! Bernstein/NYPO/Columbia, volume cranked up.

It's about escape from light. It's about opera, Italian (middle movements) and German (finale)... and thus closely tied to Mahler's experiences at the Hofoper. I'll post some thoughts on the structure of this weirdo later, but now I am summoned to play QUIXX.

Brian

Thanks to all for your comments about M7. Even though I didn't reply immediately, I read and appreciated. I just got the Kubelik cycle (part of the DG Big Box of his complete recordings for them), and hear his Seventh may to be my liking. The general praise for Barenboim, here and in other reviews, has me planning to purchase it on CD (not available to stream on Qobuz, and this is a piece where one likes to revel in the "spiffy" sound). Looking forward to your thoughts, Jens.

Jo498

Kubelik is very "natural", IIRC. Main drawback today probably average ca. 1970 sound. For a very different take of the 7th and wild ride, try Kondrashin (totally hysterical Russian brass in the finale). There are one or two live recordings that are supposedly superior (or less extreme?) than the Melodiya but I only know the last one.
Tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos, dans une chambre.
- Blaise Pascal

SurprisedByBeauty

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 12, 2022, 09:47:22 AMIt's about escape from light. It's about opera, Italian (middle movements) and German (finale)... and thus closely tied to Mahler's experiences at the Hofoper. I'll post some thoughts on the structure of this weirdo later, but now I am summoned to play QUIXX.

There's the Mahler Survey, of course...


https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no7-part-1.html




https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2013/08/gustav-mahler-symphony-no7-part-2.html


Sometimes I look back on my life as if it had been someone else's. In 2011, dirt-poor (but wise to leveraging the little I had, in position, I set out to better understand the Mahler 7th Symphony and travelled to Amsterdam and Leipzig (and went to a concert at my doorstep in Munich) to hear the work trice within a few months, once with Boulez, once with Haitink, and once with Nezet-Seguin. The latter was the time when I began to understand the 7th a little: https://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/05/mahler-festival-leipzig-nezet-seguin.html

I then grasped M7 less incompletely, when I had a talk about it with Roberto Abbado, who pointed all the Italian Opera references out to me.

And recently I wrote a brief bit about it how it's really the "Chiaroscuro" Symphony of Mahler's. But that's in German and I have to look for the file. But that makes the Tristan relation even more obvious.

I've always thought that if you could use Barenboim's 1st movement, Abbado/Berlin's Nachtmusiken, Levine's Scherzo, and Boulez' Finale, you'd have your perfect 7th.

Spotted Horses

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 13, 2022, 02:05:53 AMI've always thought that if you could use Barenboim's 1st movement, Abbado/Berlin's Nachtmusiken, Levine's Scherzo, and Boulez' Finale, you'd have your perfect 7th.

Or you could listen to Vaclav Neumann. :)
There are simply two kinds of music, good music and the other kind. - Duke Ellington

Roasted Swan

I picked up this Decca twofer recently;



For sure its a pair of exciting even virile performances from the young Mehta.  Very typical of his Decca recordings in the 70's in Los Angeles and Vienna (as well as his operas in the UK).  No.1 is very driven and extreme - exciting if a bit superficial - but well played.  Didn't pay much for this pair of discs so happy to have added them to the collection.

relm1

Quote from: Roasted Swan on December 13, 2022, 04:37:48 AMI picked up this Decca twofer recently;



For sure its a pair of exciting even virile performances from the young Mehta.  Very typical of his Decca recordings in the 70's in Los Angeles and Vienna (as well as his operas in the UK).  No.1 is very driven and extreme - exciting if a bit superficial - but well played.  Didn't pay much for this pair of discs so happy to have added them to the collection.

I love his Symphony No. 5 which is with LA Philharmonic.