Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Brian]

I have still been thinking about the "favorite" question but then moved on to thinking about my Mahler listening habits in general. I only listen to each symphony about once a year. They're such "Big Events," after hearing one I think about it and go over it for days afterwards. Right now I'm still replaying last Friday's listen to 4 in my head. I feel like if I play them frequently enough they wouldn't be as special.

Looking at the log, so far this year I've played 1 three times and 4, 5, and 8 once. Last year 2 and 4 once and 7 twice (six months apart). It's also a mark of how intense and total-focus a Mahler symphony listening experience is that I've heard 7 just three times but, thinking about 7, already have several passages that come to mind with vivid clarity.

(Phone autocorrected vivid to covid, hah)

[NumberSix]

I spent few minutes this morning building Mahler cycle playlists for future easy reference. (Yay for streaming)

Playlists: Bernstein Sony, Kubelik, Rattle, Ozawa, Fischer, Chailly, Vanska**

I finally had to stop because it was getting out of hand, as if I am ever going to get around to listening to all of these. I'll probably focus on Vanska and Fischer first -- as well as the newest Rattles -- because I am on a "newer recordings" kick at the moment, trying to cycle more of those through my listening instead of only 40-70 yrs ago dead conductor tapes. 


**I have a few other cycles saved as full albums, too, such as Boulez, Solti Chicago, Rattle Birmingham, and the DG Bernstein. Sometimes it's just fun to organize and plan, but when it gets to out of control, I delete it all and start fresh.

[DavidW]

Playlists: Bernstein Sony, Kubelik, Rattle, Ozawa, Fischer, Chailly, Vanska**

Which Fischer?

[NumberSix]

Which Fischer?

Ivan

[DavidW]

Ivan

Nice! His M3 is my favorite M3.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

On the topic of Mahler, tangentially:

I've been part of a little YouTube podcast (#ClassicalDiscoveries) where we explore, well, music worth discovering... and I was wondering if I could show it here, to get some feedback and especially criticism (maybe a bit beyond "you guys suck", although I can see that, too) from people well into that sort of thing. And perhaps take cues as to what we should be doing and covering.

In this episode, we tackled the Mahler "Retuschen" of the Beethoven Symphonies (and Schumann, a bit), instigated by the recording on Capriccio which was a surprising success (and Hurwitz liked it a lot, also to my surprise).

(I don't quite know where to post this, without being obnoxious, but I thought this might be the right thread. I will also post our video of Miklos Rozsa "Beyond Ben Hur", Braunfels' "Jeanne d'Arc" and Schnittke ("Film Music for 'Little Tragedies'") in those composers' threads.)

Classical Discoveries - #004 Beethoven vs. Mahler - The Re-Orchestrations

[Daverz]

On the topic of Mahler, tangentially:

I've been part of a little YouTube podcast (#ClassicalDiscoveries)

Will the podcast get its own channel?

[Roasted Swan]

On the topic of Mahler, tangentially:

I've been part of a little YouTube podcast (#ClassicalDiscoveries) where we explore, well, music worth discovering... and I was wondering if I could show it here, to get some feedback and especially criticism (maybe a bit beyond "you guys suck", although I can see that, too) from people well into that sort of thing. And perhaps take cues as to what we should be doing and covering.

In this episode, we tackled the Mahler "Retuschen" of the Beethoven Symphonies (and Schumann, a bit), instigated by the recording on Capriccio which was a surprising success (and Hurwitz liked it a lot, also to my surprise).

(I don't quite know where to post this, without being obnoxious, but I thought this might be the right thread. I will also post our video of Miklos Rozsa "Beyond Ben Hur", Braunfels' "Jeanne d'Arc" and Schnittke ("Film Music for 'Little Tragedies'") in those composers' threads.)

Classical Discoveries - #004 Beethoven vs. Mahler - The Re-Orchestrations

I enjoyed this podcast and I enjoyed the release before that!  I think the key here is something you reference in the video - Mahler's aim was to balance the power and number of the enlarged string sections of the Romantic Orchestra with the extra wind and brass.  These are retouchings NOT reorchestrations.  What I found notable was how little Mahler inserts himself into the musical dialogue.  Of course, in the recording studio all of these balance adjustments can be acheived on the mixing desk - when you listen to these discs I rarely found myself thinking "goodness - all those extra horns..." or whatever.  In fact my main pleasure here is in the actual playing, the emminently sane and attractive conducting and of course the glorious music.  One aspect I did wonder about - these performances seem to follow the general modern trend towards bright tempi and quite light textures - I wonder if this is how Mahler interpreted the works or did he seek something "weightier"?

[Cato]

97-year old Herbert Blomstedt conducted Mahler's Symphony #9 with The Philharmonia Orchestra in London, apparently to great acclaim!

Midweek Mahler time and tonight was an absolute peach with the London Philharmonia Orchestra, who found their A game.  Even the brass behaved themselves!

Appetiser was a beautifully played Mozart violin concerto #4 before the main event, Mahler's 9th.

Conducted by 97 year old Herbert Blomstedt, it packed an emotional punch throughout and no more than in the dying breaths of the most stunning Adagio.

Witnessed something special tonight.  (And not just the Philharmonia playing Mahler well!)

https://www.facebook.com/706381988/videos/pcb.3828005130790075/1926535771158711

[SurprisedByBeauty]

Will the podcast get its own channel?

Do you mean on YouTube? The answer is probably no... with the subscribers the Capriccio channel has, it gives us at least a little boost/viewer-base.

However, I am converting the podcasts to an Audio-Only format (mainly consists of dubbing the German interviews and making sure that the intro still makes sense, without the visuals) -- and those will have their own channel on the various podcast platforms. (I think it's important to give people the chance to let us blather in the background without being tied to the picture.)

What do you think?

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I enjoyed this podcast and I enjoyed the release before that!  I think the key here is something you reference in the video - Mahler's aim was to balance the power and number of the enlarged string sections of the Romantic Orchestra with the extra wind and brass.  These are retouchings NOT reorchestrations.  What I found notable was how little Mahler inserts himself into the musical dialogue.  Of course, in the recording studio all of these balance adjustments can be achieved on the mixing desk - when you listen to these discs I rarely found myself thinking "goodness - all those extra horns..." or whatever.  In fact my main pleasure here is in the actual playing, the eminently sane and attractive conducting and of course the glorious music.  One aspect I did wonder about - these performances seem to follow the general modern trend towards bright tempi and quite light textures - I wonder if this is how Mahler interpreted the works or did he seek something "weightier"?

Thanks for the kind words. Good question as to how Mahler conducted these works. Surely the style of playing was different back then. We only need to go back to the earliest recordings of Beethoven (or other works) to see that the aesthetic was a different one. I'm thinking in particular of Pfitzner's Beethoven and early Concertgebouw recordings of Mahler-contemporaries. I suppose Walter counts, too. I'm not sure Klemperer still reflects what was done in his Mahler's time, not the least since Klemperer had changed so drastically over the course of his conducting career.

And yes, the quality of those performances was surprising even to some of those who were involved in the project. :-) Apparently the set sold very well in Japan and had to have a second print-run, which is always amazing, for the physical medium, these days, when 300 sales is already a success of sorts. (Albeit not nearly enough to cover the costs, of course... those always have to be dispersed in some way or counted against future long-tail streaming revenue.

[Roasted Swan]

Thanks for the kind words. Good question as to how Mahler conducted these works. Surely the style of playing was different back then. We only need to go back to the earliest recordings of Beethoven (or other works) to see that the aesthetic was a different one. I'm thinking in particular of Pfitzner's Beethoven and early Concertgebouw recordings of Mahler-contemporaries. I suppose Walter counts, too. I'm not sure Klemperer still reflects what was done in his Mahler's time, not the least since Klemperer had changed so drastically over the course of his conducting career.

And yes, the quality of those performances was surprising even to some of those who were involved in the project. :-) Apparently the set sold very well in Japan and had to have a second print-run, which is always amazing, for the physical medium, these days, when 300 sales is already a success of sorts. (Albeit not nearly enough to cover the costs, of course... those always have to be dispersed in some way or counted against future long-tail streaming revenue.

This is a kind of "Double HIP" - so its an orchestra not playing Beethoven in the manner that the composer would have known but in the style is was played by an orchestra 100 years later...... It does become something of a rabbit hole if you start diving down that particular "authentic" goal!!

I would argue - much as I think these are fine performances in every respect - this is an argument why music should be reinvented anew for each and every generation otherwise we'll start debating about when (a Thursday in 1923 perhaps!  ) the "ideal" performance of any work was given......

[SurprisedByBeauty]

This is a kind of "Double HIP" - so its an orchestra not playing Beethoven in the manner that the composer would have known but in the style is was played by an orchestra 100 years later...... It does become something of a rabbit hole if you start diving down that particular "authentic" goal!!

I would argue - much as I think these are fine performances in every respect - this is an argument why music should be reinvented anew for each and every generation otherwise we'll start debating about when (a Thursday in 1923 perhaps!  ) the "ideal" performance of any work was given......

Ultimately I see all these authenticity debates as window-dressing to justify performing whatever music in the way we want to, right now. Nothing more. It's a theory to match a style, not the other way around.

[Roasted Swan]

Ultimately I see all these authenticity debates as window-dressing to justify performing whatever music in the way we want to, right now. Nothing more. It's a theory to match a style, not the other way around.

I don't understand what you are saying - this aims to be Beethoven as it was edited/played by Mahler - how can that be "performing whatever music in the way we want to, right now".  I happen to like it as played here and now - and as such I'm not fussed about whether it was edited by Mahler or the Beast of the Black Lagoon - that has nothing to do with contemporary relevance - but just because its fine musicians playing very well.

[SurprisedByBeauty]

I don't understand what you are saying - this aims to be Beethoven as it was edited/played by Mahler - how can that be "performing whatever music in the way we want to, right now".  I happen to like it as played here and now - and as such I'm not fussed about whether it was edited by Mahler or the Beast of the Black Lagoon - that has nothing to do with contemporary relevance - but just because its fine musicians playing very well.

I think I might be too tired to untangle my initial sentence. But it's the old  Richard Taruskin take on the HIP school, essentially. We might make arguments about cat gut conditions in the 1600s, but really, the aim/result is a _modern_ aesthetic that pleases us in the now.

[DavidW]

I'm not fussed about whether it was edited by Mahler or the Beast of the Black Lagoon - that has nothing to do with contemporary relevance - but just because its fine musicians playing very well.

You don't personally care, but it has EVERYTHING to do with contemporary relevance. The entire industry has been focused with laser-like vision on HIP and "authenticity" to the point where the obsession with those performances will be a defining feature of this age of recordings. I think that in the future people will look back at the recordings of this time, as trying too hard to earn that "authenticity." And a more happy equilibrium will be reached. As I see it even modern orchestras try to emulate that lean period style sound at this time.

[Roasted Swan]

You don't personally care, but it has EVERYTHING to do with contemporary relevance. The entire industry has been focused with laser-like vision on HIP and "authenticity" to the point where the obsession with those performances will be a defining feature of this age of recordings. I think that in the future people will look back at the recordings of this time, especially pre-20th century, as trying too hard to earn that "authenticity." And a more happy equilibrium will be reached. As I see it even modern orchestras try to emulate that lean period style sound at this time.

Fair comments all - "trying too hard" is the one that resonates with me most!

[Madiel]

The one clear benefit to HIP that I find has to do with the blend and balance of different instruments. I can think of a few examples of music which sounds a lot better with instruments closer to what the composer knew and envisaged.

Which is why Mahler making adjustments for a Mahler-era orchestra actually makes some kind of sense. Although the view now would be that the preferable solution is to have a Beethoven-era orchestra to the extent possible, the reverse solution of adjusting the music to the orchestra also can work. It's arguably better than just leaving the music as is and then blaming the composer for poor orchestration.

[Mandryka]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrbE65KjUmA

Was Mahler aware of Reger's op 106, the setting of Psalm 100?  It's just that I keep hearing intimations of Mahler 8 while listening to it.

The above youtube link is to Leon Botstein's concert recording, it is excellent.

[LKB]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrbE65KjUmA

Was Mahler aware of Reger's op 106, the setting of Psalm 100?  It's just that I keep hearing intimations of Mahler 8 while listening to it.

The above youtube link is to Leon Botstein's concert recording, it is excellent.

Mahler created the Eighth in an impressively short period during the early Summer of 1906 ( it's premiere didn't occur until 1910, and was Mahler's final triumph in Europe ). Remarkably, Mahler seems to have left the work virtually untouched once it was completed. Reger's work wasn't composed until 1908, so Mahler could not have been aware of it while he was working on the Eighth.