Mahler Mania, Rebooted

[Roasted Swan]

I like the Barshai M5 best. Runner up I think the first (analog) CSO Solti.

The Barshai is genuinely very good indeed - and all the more remarkable for being recorded live AND with a German Youth Orchestra (conservatoire students I would assume)

[relm1]

Minor nit/question: did Mahler actually finish orchestrating Scherzo I (2nd mvt)? My understanding was that he finished orchestrating only the first movement, and got a bit more than halfway through the Purgatorio (3rd mvt). I thought I read that Cooke needed a fair amount of guesswork in orchestrating Scherzo I. That from a liner note to, I think, the Ormandy rendition of Cooke I - which I no longer possess, so have no way to check.

I think you're right, it was the Purgatorio which I forgot was the 3rd movement, not the second movement.  One of the challenges with this work is in some places the sketch is more complete than the short score.  But the short score is a draft of the finished work.  That is where some of the differences between the versions come in.  Like Barshai's completion, he might have swapped what was in the sketch for what's in the short score in places.  Cooke generally used the short score since the sketch includes abandoned ideas, working through ideas, placeholders (missing counterpoint with just whole notes as accompaniment that would get flushed out in the short score), etc.  It's a sketchpad. 

[Valentino]

Could someone with a full range stereo explain to me what Decca were thinking when they engineered the 4th to 5th movement drum beats on the Chailly Mahler 10? I guess that passage should be frightening but hello.

[relm1]

Could someone with a full range stereo explain to me what Decca were thinking when they engineered the 4th to 5th movement drum beats on the Chailly Mahler 10? I guess that passage should be frightening but hello.

The percussionist thought they were doing No. 6 with the hammer blows.  He didn't get the memo that they're doing No. 10 instead.

[krummholz]

I think you're right, it was the Purgatorio which I forgot was the 3rd movement, not the second movement.  One of the challenges with this work is in some places the sketch is more complete than the short score.  But the short score is a draft of the finished work.  That is where some of the differences between the versions come in.  Like Barshai's completion, he might have swapped what was in the sketch for what's in the short score in places.  Cooke generally used the short score since the sketch includes abandoned ideas, working through ideas, placeholders (missing counterpoint with just whole notes as accompaniment that would get flushed out in the short score), etc.  It's a sketchpad. 

Have you actually seen the short score, or the sketch? I ask because I have no idea how one would obtain them today. I remember as a high school senior going to the downtown branch of the Detroit Public Library because I had read that they had a copy of what was termed "Mahler's manuscript" of the entire 10th Symphony, which I assumed was the short score. But I never got to so much as see it - it was stashed away somewhere, out of public view much less public physical access. Today, the various performing versions are available for purchase from e.g. IMSLP, but I've never seen the original short score (much less the sketch) advertised as such and assumed it was never actually published.

[krummholz]

Which readings of the Cooke performing version join the 4th and 5th movements via the final drum stroke of IV? I have the Rattle recording which does this, but am not sure if anyone else has done this nor whether there is any scholarship on the question of whether Mahler actually intended this? What did Mahler actually write in the score?

[Valentino]

They are there on the mentioned Chailly and on the Barshai (and that's Barshai PE, not Cooke). The latter does not shake your foundations though (always thanks to AC/DC).

[relm1]

Have you actually seen the short score, or the sketch? I ask because I have no idea how one would obtain them today. I remember as a high school senior going to the downtown branch of the Detroit Public Library because I had read that they had a copy of what was termed "Mahler's manuscript" of the entire 10th Symphony, which I assumed was the short score. But I never got to so much as see it - it was stashed away somewhere, out of public view much less public physical access. Today, the various performing versions are available for purchase from e.g. IMSLP, but I've never seen the original short score (much less the sketch) advertised as such and assumed it was never actually published.

They are on IMSLP.  Yes, I've looked through them.  There was also a version of Derick Cooke's published score where the bottom staves were the short score so you could see how it all lined up.

[Brian]

I posted my first listen to Mahler 7 in this thread a few years ago, and about every two years I've listened to the piece again. My first ever listen was Bernstein/NY. Second was Bloch/Lille. Third was Barenboim, which I didn't write notes about unfortunately.

Fourth listen was last week: Kubelik/Bavarian, the DG studio recording not Audite live. I greatly enjoyed the sound of the orchestra, with vibrato-laden brass and winds, often sounding very precise and brash and exciting. I also enjoyed the first movement more than I ever have before. Although before the big famous "hush" interlude it still gets tiring listening to repetitive angst at the same high volume, Kubelik does the interlude magically and then he's even more magical at raising the temperature bit by bit, returning to the original material in an interesting and colorful way. The race to the coda is thrilling. Unlike previous listens, I only found the three minute stretch from about 5-8 to be dull.

The scherzo "slaps," as the kids say. However, I found the Nachtmusik II emotionally cool and the finale not quite crazy enough. When the finale's episodes, diversions, digressions, etc. are not characterized differently enough, it kinda feels like the same thing is happening over and over and over and over and over and...

I guess two years from now I'll make my fifth listen, likely with Tilson Thomas/LSO/RCA. That will complete the recordings owned in my collection, and then I'll let myself listen to one of 'em for a second time. 

[Skogwald]

I really like Chailly in Mahler, 3/5/9 have all been incredible. I plan to listen to all the others, but which other conductors should I look at if I like Chailly?

[Jo498]

The scherzo "slaps," as the kids say. However, I found the Nachtmusik II emotionally cool and the finale not quite crazy enough. When the finale's

One of the craziest 7th's recordings is Kondrashin/Melodiya, however the 2nd Nachtmusik is a bit too fast for good contrast although Kondrashin is so fast in the finale that there is still plenty of difference. There is apparently another live? Kondrashin recording with the Concertgebouw or another Western orchestra that is a bit more moderate and preferred by many.

[Crudblud]

For me Gielen is the man when it comes to the 7th. From just the opening tremolo the atmosphere is undeniable, and of course broken when Mahler decides it is time.

I also love Scherchen's totally unhinged 1965 Toronto 7th. It is falling apart at the seams from bar 1 and yet it holds together seemingly through sheer force of will. Features a very convincing reading of the finale's reintroduction of the theme from the first movement as well.

[DavidW]

I really like Chailly in Mahler, 3/5/9 have all been incredible. I plan to listen to all the others, but which other conductors should I look at if I like Chailly?

I think you might also like Bernstein and Levine. Also check out Solti in the first symphony, Mehta in the second symphony, and MTT in the 7th (RCA).

[Roasted Swan]

This is a famous performance that has existed in various restorations/iterations on CD;



Now HDTT have worked their magic using what they call (but don't explain!) as a "superior tape source, in its first audiophile release".  Remarkably the BBC - who recorded the concert - were experimenting with early stereo in 1959 and the result here is genuinely very very good indeed with a good sense of hearing the concert from a fair way back in the Royal Albert Hall.  The performance is genuinely an "occasion" with all involved absolutely committed and engaged.  Horenstein - pace Jabba the Hurtwitz who will no doubt be scathing again about the conductor - does an extraordinary job pacing the work with cumulative power and visionary zeal.  The LSO play quite superbly - featuring the likes of Neville Marriner as principal 2nd violin and numerous other famous names.  I knew this performance form the BBC Legends version - still very good - but here it impressed me even more......

[DavidW]

This is a famous performance that has existed in various restorations/iterations on CD;



Now HDTT have worked their magic using what they call (but don't explain!) as a "superior tape source, in its first audiophile release".  Remarkably the BBC - who recorded the concert - were experimenting with early stereo in 1959 and the result here is genuinely very very good indeed with a good sense of hearing the concert from a fair way back in the Royal Albert Hall.  The performance is genuinely an "occasion" with all involved absolutely committed and engaged.  Horenstein - pace Jabba the Hurtwitz who will no doubt be scathing again about the conductor - does an extraordinary job pacing the work with cumulative power and visionary zeal.  The LSO play quite superbly - featuring the likes of Neville Marriner as principal 2nd violin and numerous other famous names.  I knew this performance form the BBC Legends version - still very good - but here it impressed me even more......

Is this the same recording from BBC Legends, Live from the Albert Hall, just remastered?

[Roasted Swan]

Is this the same recording from BBC Legends, Live from the Albert Hall, just remastered?

Yes.  They have worked a bit of HDTT "magic" - I assume some judicious EQing - as well as managing to remove most of the worst bronchial audience contributions and it says in their publicity blurb that they have stabilised the pitch and managed some drop out.  But of course the actual performance is identical and very good indeed.  Remarkably this was an experimental BBC stereo recording - their first and the sound for 1959 is genuinely impressive - much better than most archive off-air recordings from similar sources/locations a decade later.

[DavidW]

Yes.  They have worked a bit of HDTT "magic" - I assume some judicious EQing - as well as managing to remove most of the worst bronchial audience contributions and it says in their publicity blurb that they have stabilised the pitch and managed some drop out.  But of course the actual performance is identical and very good indeed.  Remarkably this was an experimental BBC stereo recording - their first and the sound for 1959 is genuinely impressive - much better than most archive off-air recordings from similar sources/locations a decade later.

Fantastic! I love that recording, I think it is time to go shopping. I see they also have the 3rd and 9th.