Mahler Mania, Rebooted

Started by Greta, May 01, 2007, 08:06:38 PM

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Renfield

Quote from: Auferstehung on May 24, 2008, 07:34:18 PM
Rattle's 2nd is kind of weird...why is the chromatic descension at the end of the Totenfeier so slow? And the finale sounds underpowered...give me my Mehta and Bernstein back, thank you.

In two words: different aesthetic.

Wanderer

Quote from: Renfield on April 07, 2008, 04:19:10 PM
Wait, did I just recommend all the cycle but the 1st and 3rd?

What's wrong with these two?

Renfield

Quote from: Wanderer on May 24, 2008, 10:14:01 PM
What's wrong with these two?

A slightly "aurally muddled" first, and a and maybe overly idiomatic third.

They're fine performances, just not top recommendations next to the really good firsts and thirds; whereas the other performances in the cycle all have a claim to that title. (In my opinion, obviously.) :)

greg

Quote from: Auferstehung on May 24, 2008, 07:34:18 PM
Rattle's 2nd is kind of weird...why is the chromatic descension at the end of the Totenfeier so slow?
slow?!
remind me not to listen....

rubio

Quote from: Auferstehung on May 24, 2008, 07:34:18 PM
Rattle's 2nd is kind of weird...why is the chromatic descension at the end of the Totenfeier so slow? And the finale sounds underpowered...give me my Mehta and Bernstein back, thank you.

I think that detail is quite cool for a change 8).
"One good thing about music, when it hits- you feel no pain" Bob Marley

knight66

You are referring to the EMI recording. It is not altogether an accurate reflection of Rattle's live performances; during which he changed many details and was inclined to go with the moment. For example, I heard him hold the extended drumroll until it became unbearable, the tension palpable, the release a brilliant dramatic stroke. But that is not a detail that is likely to work on a recording and endlessly repeated. The ending was never underpowered when I heard it.

Of course, this is only of nugatory interest, in that the recording is all that can now be heard. But even at the point it was committed to disc, some noticeable details were still being rethought.

Incidentally, I see nothing wrong in the end of the Totenfeier being slow...within the context of that particular fix on the piece.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Greta

Been meaning to post in this thread for a while, as I had the great pleasure to hear live Mahler for the first time recently! The 2nd Symphony, by the Houston Symphony under MD Hans Graf.

Mahler live is sooo much better and such a different experience than on recordings. It seemed like there was so much going on all the time, by the finale it was sensory overload. It was totally overwhelming, and luckily it was a totally outstanding performance.

Where to start, gah....one thing we noticed first were the three LARGE tubular bells, we got a kick out of the percussionist that had to climb like 20 ft in the air to hit them, we joked he needed hazard pay!  ;D

There were brass players constantly filing in and out to do offstage work, and that was certainly impressive - the way that sounds live is really special, sometimes it was doors open, sometimes half closed. It struck me how very difficult the brass writing is in the Finale, there are notable spots in which the horns/trumpet have to hit high notes softly and exposed and that was done extremely well. There is a section about halfway through the finale, where there is a crazy random offstage band, going on while the strings play this very sad theme, and then that all culminates in a big apocalypse. What in the world does all that mean exactly? That is very chill-inducing!

The choir and singers were awesome live. When the choir entered, they were still sitting down, and were so soft I couldn't even see their mouths moving and barely realized they were singing. It was so eerie and affecting! The soprano began in the choir, first we heard her, and then she rose, kind of blossomed out of the texture, then she went offstage and walked through the 1st violins to the front to finish. That was amusingly precarious for her, as the strings were sandwiched in quite tightly and there were people almost hanging off the stage with all the sections swelled to capacity.

Other random cool stuff live: Mahler's orchestration!!! And the effect it had on the audience...they were so quiet during all the brass/flute solos in the middle of the Finale, you could feel the tension in the air. He creates such a surreal and haunting atmosphere there! Also the 2nd mvmt extended pizz section, looking around the audience seemed totally fascinated, like WTH are they doing?  ;) That is a very unique sound live.

There is so much detail that popped out that had before kind of passed me by, I guess we humans are known to listen visually, and watching the conductor and musicians drew my attention to some lines and entrances I hadn't ever focused on much. Mahler's unique choices of instruments sound magical, notably, the woodwind writing, all the "nature" doodlings in the woodwinds were especially great, the way they float up over the ensemble. And the beginning of the Finale!! Where the whole flute section is blowing away on piccolos, that was just amazing live. The way that sound rides on top of the huge orchestra and his hugely orchestrated chords was awesome to hear (feel!)

The immense sheer power and hysteria of the writing really gets to you in live performance, much more acutely than on recording. Sometimes I really felt like supernatural things were being called forth. :o The ending is so magnificent, I don't know why but the last mournful violin solos got me and my friend and we both ended up with crocodile tears down the face during the last few minutes. It was quite neat, the flood of people coming out looked like they'd been run over a bit!

If that hadn't been a Sunday performance and it weren't so far away, I would've gone back again...it was too much to take in for one sitting!

Anybody - your first live Mahler? What was it like? What work and performers, and do you remember being devastated by the experience? :)

Bonehelm

Quote from: knight on May 25, 2008, 07:12:34 AM
You are referring to the EMI recording. It is not altogether an accurate reflection of Rattle's live performances; during which he changed many details and was inclined to go with the moment. For example, I heard him hold the extended drumroll until it became unbearable, the tension palpable, the release a brilliant dramatic stroke. But that is not a detail that is likely to work on a recording and endlessly repeated. The ending was never underpowered when I heard it.

Of course, this is only of nugatory interest, in that the recording is all that can now be heard. But even at the point it was committed to disc, some noticeable details were still being rethought.

Incidentally, I see nothing wrong in the end of the Totenfeier being slow...within the context of that particular fix on the piece.

Mike

I'm sure his is a good M2, but the interpretation is just not for me...that's just a difference in taste, that's what it is. :) I enjoy Bernstein/DG or Mehta/Decca Legends more, at least for the Totenfeier.

knight66

Oh yes, I agree. A matter of taste.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Renfield

Quote from: Greta on May 25, 2008, 05:33:59 PM

Anybody - your first live Mahler? What was it like? What work and performers, and do you remember being devastated by the experience? :)


The 6th Symphony, to date my only live Mahler experience: Markus Stenz, with the Gürzenich Orchestra.

I can second your comments on how amazing Mahler's orchestration sounds live, and Stenz's reading was also solid, sombre and impressively overwhelming (as it should be), at every turn.

To date, I consider it my second most precious live musical (orchestral) experience, next to hearing Ein Heldenleben from the Dresden Staatskapelle under Luisi. And I hear Stenz will be at the Proms this year with Mahler's 5th! :)

knight66

#370
Anybody - your first live Mahler? What was it like? What work and performers, and do you remember being devastated by the experience?

I had just joined the Scottish National Orchestra Chorus, I was 18. The week I joined they were in a performance of Mahler's 8th Symphony in Glasgow conducted by Alexander Gibson. Obviously, I could not be in the performance, but I went in with the chorus for the final rehearsals and sat in the amphitheatre, then I went in early with them for the performance and stood right at the front of the Prom area as close to Heather Harper as possible. The soloists and orchestra were on the flat, so I was on the same level as that glorious soaring soprano voice. She really was a world class singer.

The whole experience was a revelation to me, a complete knockout. The tenor soloist was extremely fine, Vilim Pibril. Felicity Palmer was another of the soloists, this was when she was still a soprano. Alfreda Hodgeson and Helen Watts were two more soloists.

It was shown on TV and my mother, who knew as much about music as I know about astrophysics, asked; now I was in the choir when was it my turn to stand at the front on my own?

It was a great introduction to Mahler and although I have no idea whether it was a good performance, it was certainly memorable for me. My ears were ringing for hours afterwards having Heather Harper sing full pelt about 12 feet from me.

I have subsequently been in at least half a dozen Mahler 8s, some good some so/so, which means, poor really. It is a piece that either comes off well or fails.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

greg

Quote from: knight on May 26, 2008, 02:47:00 AM
Anybody - your first live Mahler? What was it like? What work and performers, and do you remember being devastated by the experience?
The 5th Symphony, played by the Orlando Phil.
I don't remember it being bad, they just needed a larger string section just as the guy in the newspaper wrote.

Sergeant Rock

#372
Quote from: Greta on May 25, 2008, 05:33:59 PM
Been meaning to post in this thread for a while, as I had the great pleasure to hear live Mahler for the first time recently!...

Wonderful write up, Greta. Your enthusiasm is contagious.

My first live Mahler was in 1967 at Severance Hall in Cleveland, the Sixth performed by the Cleveland Orchestra, George Szell conducting. After 40 years details are hazy but I think they used the same hammer that Abbado used in Cleveland five years later. I hitchhiked home from Ohio University, skipping Thursday and Friday classes. I sat in the cheapest section, last row of the balcony. I'd never heard the Sixth before. I didn't know what to expect. The music devastated me. When it was over, I could not understand why anyone was clapping....how anyone could clap pure tragedy. It was such desolating but truthful music. I still consider that performance (which was eventually released on LP then CD) one of the greatest I've ever heard: Szell's rather cool (classically restrained) first three movements fake us out, set us up for the kill: the most devastating, crushing final fortissimo chords on record.

My second live Mahler was a Szell/Cleveland performance of the Fourth at Blossom Music Center in 1968. Schwarzkopf was the soloist. I'm ashamed to say I didn't enjoy it, finding it lightweight and even silly sounding in parts. The Fourth took me many years to warm to. I suppose it wasn't dark or dramatic enough for me...who knows. I don't understand that shallow youth at all ;D  (Drasko gave me this performance last year--I didn't ask where he'd gotten it; needless to say, I enjoy it a lot more now.)

My mission, defending the free world from godless communism, the red menace, prevented me from hearing what probably would have been life-altering perfornances in Cleveland and at Blossom had I been home in 1970 and not in Asia: Das Lied with Janet Baker, conducted by Szell and the Second conducted by Bernstein (Lenny told the Clevelanders at rehearsal, "You guys are so fucking good."). You know, the World Order probably wouldn't have altered much had I gone AWOL to hear those concerts. I should have ;D

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Bonehelm

I wish to fly over to Lucerne to hear Abbado do Mahler before he, you know, leaves us for good. I'm still a Mahler virgin, gotta hear a live performance before I die.

Greta

Thanks for the stories all! Mike, can't beat being in your first Mahler!  ;D

You guys were talking about Rattle M2 - I think his live performances are more appealing than the EMI recording, though I still think it's excellent. There is one of he with the Philharmonia from the early 80s that is pretty hot, and then the great vid from his farewell CBSO concert, just outstanding IMO.

It is funny, I had uploaded that vid at YouTube, and was contacted by a couple of people who sang in the chorus on that. :) One guy, quite a young chorister at the time, described a similar experience to that of Mike's, said it was life-altering!

Sarge - haven't gotten to hear the 6th yet, but it is the 5th through 7th I am most wild about, and can't WAIT to hear, someday.

Man, I really love the 6th. I forget how much until I haven't heard it for a while (now listening!) I found the 6th pretty easy to get into for some reason, I think it's such a cool piece. Would it be wrong to say it's even groovy at times?  ;D

There are many classically oriented gestures, Beethoven comes to mind. The 5th and 6th still just absolutely astound me in the sheer brilliance of the writing, and perplex me too. Which I love! I have always heard a lot of Strauss in the 6th, in the high crying violin lines and especially the recurring major-minor brass declamation. The first and last movements actually feel like tone poems in essence, to me. They could practically stand on their own.

So, I finally got the new Philly 6th with Eschenbach, that's what I'm listening to. It's pretty nice, straightforward and energetic, and the playing is impressive, but the recorded sound is really strange. Very "live" and kind of dry, with a airy distance to the sound. Clarity is achieved at the expense of anything blending in the high register and especially the brass, which become very strident and overbalanced at times. It's an interesting performance, and good, but oh, I don't like Ondine's sound picture at all:P

I have to hear that Gergiev 6th...Mackerras and Boulez still stand as my favorites...and has anyone heard the new Jansons/RCO?! I have read some great things about it.

Solitary Wanderer

I had three live Mahler concerts last year being; 5,2 & 4.

The performance of #2 was the highlight of the year.

Simply awe inspiring music.

A friend sung in the choir and complained beforehand how she disliked Mahler and that he was too 'Teutonic'. After the performance she told me she'd changed her opinion  :)
'I lingered round them, under that benign sky: watched the moths fluttering among the heath and harebells, listened to the soft wind breathing through the grass, and wondered how any one could ever imagine unquiet slumbers for the sleepers in that quiet earth.' ~ Emily Bronte

Bonehelm

Quote from: Solitary Wanderer on May 28, 2008, 03:59:34 PM
I had three live Mahler concerts last year being; 5,2 & 4.

The performance of #2 was the highlight of the year.

Simply awe inspiring music.

A friend sung in the choir and complained beforehand how she disliked Mahler and that he was too 'Teutonic'. After the performance she told me she'd changed her opinion  :)

What orchestra, choir, and under who?

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Greta on May 28, 2008, 03:51:53 PM
Man, I really love the 6th. I forget how much until I haven't heard it for a while (now listening!) I found the 6th pretty easy to get into for some reason, I think it's such a cool piece. Would it be wrong to say it's even groovy at times?  ;D

Not if it were 1967, the year I first heard the groovy Sixth  ;D

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

knight66

Greta,

You are spurring me on to getting to a real live concert. It is ages since I caught any Mahler. I was not in that Mahler 8th unfortunately, but almost was.....which of course does not count at all. What I did not say about the Rattle is that each time I heard him do the 2nd, I was in the choir, so I was also at the final rehearsals and able to  watch performances emerge. He would change things on the wing and he always did the concert from memory.

On one occasion he did lose the plot in the performance, it would only have been noticeable from our side, as the orchestra knew what they were doing and he quickly got back in the groove. (Almost groovy there.)

Best Mahler 8; might have been Boulez, though it did not feel that way from the inside of the performance, but subsequently I found a recording of the performance and it was pretty good. Worst Mahler 8, Leinsdorf, poor old guy was at sea and did ask that we lead him, which did not make for the most coherent performance. It was distinguished by a ferocious summer thunder storm that broke over the Cleveland summer venue during one of the filigree passages, that added the drama missing more generally from the evening.

Mike
DavidW: Yeah Mike doesn't get angry, he gets even.
I wasted time: and time wasted me.

Sergeant Rock

#379
Quote from: knight on May 28, 2008, 10:44:57 PM
Worst Mahler 8, Leinsdorf...It was distinguished by a ferocious summer thunder storm that broke over the Cleveland summer venue...

A frequent happening at Blossom. The most amusing, and dramatic instance I experienced was during a Dvorak Seventh--not a thunderstorm but heat lightning's rumbling thunder that punctuated the quiet moments of the last movement. The natural percussion strokes were perfectly timed for maximum dramatic and musical impact. It really seemed as though God were sitting in the percussion section that evening, and his timing was perfect; it really fit the music ;D

Do you recall what year that was, Mike? I couldn't have been home that summer or I would have certainly attended that M8 concert.

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"